gymn Digest Mon, 1 Aug 94 Volume 2 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:
Another Aussie Commonwealth Team Profile - Brett Hudson
Anouncers
Aussie Commenwealth Team Trials
But it's Kathy's fault, ya know? (2 msgs)
CompuServe
East Region Elite Qualifying meet (men)
fat tests
GG: notes on Kochetkova (2 msgs)
GG: say what??
GG: Shannon in beam finals?
Goodwill Games
Goodwill Games Coverage
GWG/Prodigy
Kochetkova
now dont be hasslin' them thar rasslers ! (5 msgs)
TBS coverage
Women's AA, ABC style (3 msgs)

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 01:06:16 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Another Aussie Commonwealth Team Profile - Brett Hudson

Geez another bit from the Aussie AP by Terry O'Conner. I bet our gymnasts
wish they got half this coverage about anything. Only things in quotes are
taken directly from the article.

An aside from Susan ... I noticed while looking at the pics from Brisbane
that the Aussie boys in general were quite cute (esp. that Tim
what's-his-name). Not quite as cute as the Soviets but pretty fine
none-the-less. Unfortuanately Nancy was so thoughtless as to not take any
pictures of them from behind (though I am rubbing off on her since I saw one
of Igor's backside). ;-)

Brett Hudson (age 20) is the new Australian national champ (replacing Brennon
Dowrick who missed out on the comp. with an injury according to the article)
and talks about putting his personal life, including marriage plans, on hold
... "Gymnastics has to come first if you're serious about success ... At one
stage they tried banning us from having girlfriends, then they tried to ban
girls from coming over to the Institute. So I've had to find other places to
meet Louise, and I'm trying to live outside the campus now. I've been living
here six years, that's long enough."

He meet his fiance (Louise Dresser) at school in 1987 and they dated five
years before he asked her to marry him a week before the Brisbane worlds.

[talking her watching him at '94 worlds] "She was sitting in the stands, and
the crowd were all talking about Brennon (Dowrick), and I was on the vault I
nailed the landing, nailed it, and then they all started asking who this guy
was."

[about Commonwealth Games] "I don't have anything to worry about at the
Games, nothing to lose and everything to gain, because I'm a no-name now,
you know, 23rd in the world ... I am one of the younger ones coming through,
I'm just starting to push the older guys... well, give them a shove anyway"

[Terry O'Conner writes] " Hudson is ranked No.1 in the Commonwealth on the
vault - no-one else includes two vaults of 9.8 degree of difficulty in their
repertoire - and is a solid gold medal prospect in Canada. He took the gold
on vault at the past three years' national championships, and moved up the
world individual all-around rankings from 57th of 123 competitors in 1993,
to 23rd of 85 this year."

[Brett about his vault and other events] "The vault is definitely my best
apparatus, but I enjoy the high bar the most. It's a great rush on the bar,
using all your skills to make a routine at this level of competition. Once
there was a time when I'd go to a competition knowing I'd fall off the
horse, but now it's starting to become one of my favourites"

He talks about his goal as being part of the Australian team in the 2000
Olympics which will take place in Sydney

[about his training] "I've taken this year off study (for an associate
diploma in fitness and recreational leadership). Last year I was studying 29
hours a week and training 30 hours. I got by but it meant a lot of late
nights. But it's one or the other, you can't do both. You can only do
gymnastics for just so long, and I want to do as well as I possibly can in
my time."

[on what got him into the sport when he was 6] "because my brother was doing
it, and we did everything together [soon found he was better then his
brother] so I kept going and as I got better I enjoyed it more. I had yearly
goals, not longer-term ones, but I surprised myself, I never thought I'd
reach level 10 (full international level) and I finally reached it. Then the
first year I went to the nationals I found I really enjoyed the travelling.
Competition is of course the most important thing, but when it's over you
can relax together (with the rest of the team). We're mates, we train
together because we enjoy it."

[about the '91 Worlds] "It was my first international competition, and this
stadium seated 10,000 people. There were supporters from all over the world,
the Swiss had cowbells and the Americans went wild whenever one of their
gymnasts was on the floor, the noise was amazing. I had to learn really
quickly, and there was also quite a strong breeze flowing through this
stadium."

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: Anouncers

I agree with Ron.
Id like to see someone telling us the names of the moves as they are done so
that we can learn. Hell I cant remember 1/2 the guys moves, I wont even TRY
to remember the girls moves...

I look forward to the day when the anouncer is screaming into the mike
"Stick it ! Stick it ! Ah......(CENSORED)"
just like they have in basketball, football, and soccer.
Maybe instead of SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRE !
perhaps we could get a STIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK IT !

Gymnastics, a fascinating sport, unique in that it is the only sport where
"stick it" is a benediction rather thatn an invitation for a fight.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 23:20:09 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Aussie Commenwealth Team Trials

>Another interesting note the article says that team selection includes a
"skinfold test" (I assume for body fat percentages) which has been quite
controiversial (I bet!).

Are they using the test to detect anorexia, or do the girls have to be under
a certain % to get on the team?

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 03:45:34 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: But it's Kathy's fault, ya know?

<whiny, complainy childlike tone>
Gee whiz guys. You all are a harsh crowd! But it's Kathy's fault . . . not
mine. Ya see, though, if I don't agree with her, she won't stop arguing with
me on the flight home, and giving me that dirty little look of hers. Ya all
understand, ya know, don't ya? It's a long flight there from St. Petersburg.

<enthusiastically defensive tone>
And its not like *I* was the stupid idiot who asked Shannon how she was going
to deal with her weight! No, even I have more class than that--besides, if I
had asked Shannon, she would have decked me so hard that I would . . .--she's
very strong, ya know . . . she works out a lot . . . and she looks so much
more attractive, too-- . . . oops, Nadia, I didn't mean that . . . really
snookums, I didn't . . .

It *was I* who desperately tried to keep the Romanian's off the air, because
if I made any dumb remarks, Nadia would be very, well, . . . Oh, I just
can't take it anymore!

Where's my, er, oh, . . . and no, I don't use drugs--but if I do, Kathy gave
them to me. We, . . . er, uh, *she*, gets them from the ABC. Yah, you know,
the ABC staff got lots of drugs off the streets when they were doing the
*CRIME AND DRUGS IN HISTORIC LENINGRAD* segment . . . ya know, the one just
before the *STALIN'S CHAUVENISTIC IDEALISMS STILL ALIVE IN THE FORMER SOVIET
UNION* piece, which was squished inbetween the third round of boxing and the
first and second rotations of the all-around.

And, and, . . . Kathy wasn't getting the scores to me either--no, she was too
busy looking for "unpointed" toes, and rating the difficulty of the routine
by her odd and craz, er, um, unique method which I can't comprehend. . . so
anyway, I just let her go off. Do any of you understand her?

And no, we didn't have researchers to help us . . . 'cause Nadia inexplicably
refused to come. We tried to get Zmeskal to take it, but she was busy
training--did ya all know she "unretired"? Ya, me and Kathy are keeping it a
secret. That's right, we haven't mentioned it yet . . . and we have
commentated several exhibitions and the Goodwill Games, but we aren't even
going to mention it. Shhh, I wasn't even supposed to tell ya all. Ha ha, its
a conspiracy, don't ya think? Yup, and we even played a short interview with
her, did ya see that? And we didn't mention it then either. Was that braces
I saw on her, or are my eyes going bad--DON'T ANSWER THAT!

And besides, it's not like I need any researchers anyway--I know most
everything . . . and if I don't, Kathy can make it up. I mean, sure, I
mispronounce some names here and there, but only because Kathy says them
first, ya know? I have them right in the first place, but we would sound so
stupid stubbornly pronouncing the names differently during the same
routine--don't ya all think?

I was going to try and make everything more exciting for you folks watching.
That's right. I was going to do an Andres Cantar impression, ya know,
!GOOOOOOOOOOOOAL! Except, it was going to sound like "Shannon scored a 10
point OOOOOOOOOH!" But Shannon didn't, so I didn't. Maybe in the event
finals. <giggle> I think it would scare Kathy out of her mind--maybe she'd
run away or pass out or something. Then I could take over, and rule the
mike, the airwaves would be mine, and. . . and . . .

Bart

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 08:49:17 +0600
From: ***@scoter.cdev.com
Subject: But it's Kathy's fault, ya know?

> From ***@aol.com Mon Aug 1 02:55 CDT 1994
> From: ***@aol.com
> To: gymn@MIT.EDU
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 03:45:34 EDT
> Subject: But it's Kathy's fault, ya know?

<<< unfunny message deleted >>>

Well folks, here we go. We now have "arrived", having received
our first (?) message from a faked mail ID. I think that
the real Bart would not be amused. Shades of Internet News.
--John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 01:06:21 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: CompuServe

CompuServe has finally put a gymnastics shot in it's "Reuter's News Pictures"
library. Unlike the stuff they had during worlds this is a fairly clear shot
of Shannon mid back handspring on floor. They should have more as the comp.
goes on but then again I'd thought they'd have more by now.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 10:54:08 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: East Region Elite Qualifying meet (men)

I had the distinct pleasure of doing the East Region Elite Qualifying meet
stats this weekend at International Gymnastics - the meet was fun, with
good competition - scoring was tough, in most cases - and it sounds like
for the majority of the guys there was a sense of fairness. A few gifts as
always, and a few things missed, but here are the results. I am posting
both weighted and unweighted scores - that way you can see what the USGF
official scores are, and what the guys would have earned had this meet been
anything but a qulifyer.

Mayland
------------------------

The first list is the weighted score Compulsories are worth 60% and
Optionals are worth 40%:
FX PH R V PB HB
Bill Roth O 915 945 895 940 930 965 55.90 110.36 Temple Univ.
C 965 810 885 935 900 975 54.70
Jeff LaVallee O 850 900 905 855 925 890 53.25 107.40 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 920 865 915 925 890 885 54.00
Brent Klaus O 970 820 890 870 830 855 52.35 106.50 International Gymnastics
C 945 875 855 930 975 905 53.85
Mike Masucci O 885 900 920 885 905 850 53.45 106.18 Penn State Univ.
C 925 850 910 940 900 760 52.85
Calvin Booker O 920 790 850 870 760 885 50.75 104.26 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 955 775 890 915 860 910 53.05
Mike S. Moran O 910 735 845 860 850 790 49.90 103.88 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 930 815 915 940 835 895 53.30
Aaron Vexler O 875 840 870 855 855 870 51.65 103.78 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 910 830 900 920 760 885 52.05
Todd Brumley O 895 720 895 840 880 880 51.10 103.76 Knoxville Gymnastics
C 895 800 925 875 880 865 52.40
Nat Goodale O 840 895 910 800 890 850 51.85 102.38 Ohio State Univ.
C 920 745 870 885 835 820 50.75
Mike Morgan O 825 880 865 850 880 845 51.45 101.76 Queen City Gymnastics
C 855 730 900 915 850 800 50.50
Dave Frank O 905 755 920 865 905 760 51.10 100.22 Temple Univ.
C 940 590 950 930 815 720 49.45
Tim Elsner O 820 820 870 845 805 805 49.65 99.72 World Cup Gym
C 920 795 910 940 810 625 50.00
Jason Katsampes O 880 880 840 860 830 770 50.60 99.16 Parkettes
C 885 825 875 780 880 645 48.90
Mark Mehringer O 800 785 895 820 800 865 49.65 95.40 Tim Daggett
C 845 575 825 905 790 700 46.40
Chris CamiscioliO 885 705 785 850 815 740 47.80 89.42 International Gymnastics
C 825 560 820 905 630 525 42.65
Mike Canales O 790 745 735 810 735 735 45.50 86.92 Gymnastics World Gym
C 765 575 665 895 770 540 42.10
Mike Dutka O Scratch 0.00 60.00 Gymnastrum
C 940 845 860 935 825 595 50.00


This next version is the raw scores - just add the two totals together -
the major difference is that Masucci would have been 3rd and Klaus 4th
FX PH R V PB HB
Bill Roth O 915 945 895 940 930 965 55.90 110.60 Temple Univ.
C 965 810 885 935 900 975 54.70
Jeff LaVallee O 850 900 905 855 925 890 53.25 107.25 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 920 865 915 925 890 885 54.00
Mike Masucci O 885 900 920 885 905 850 53.45 106.30 Penn State Univ.
C 925 850 910 940 900 760 52.85
Brent Klaus O 970 820 890 870 830 855 52.35 106.20 International Gymnastics
C 945 875 855 930 975 905 53.85
Calvin Booker O 920 790 850 870 760 885 50.75 103.80 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 955 775 890 915 860 910 53.05
Aaron Vexler O 875 840 870 855 855 870 51.65 103.70 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 910 830 900 920 760 885 52.05
Todd Brumley O 895 720 895 840 880 880 51.10 103.50 Knoxville Gymnastics
C 895 800 925 875 880 865 52.40
Mike S. Moran O 910 735 845 860 850 790 49.90 103.72 Tim Daggett Gold Medal
C 930 815 915 940 835 895 53.30
Nat Goodale O 840 895 910 800 890 850 51.85 102.60 Ohio State Univ.
C 920 745 870 885 835 820 50.75
Mike Morgan O 825 880 865 850 880 845 51.45 101.95 Queen City Gymnastics
C 855 730 900 915 850 800 50.50
Dave Frank O 905 755 920 865 905 760 51.10 100.55 Temple Univ.
C 940 590 950 930 815 720 49.45
Tim Elsner O 820 820 870 845 805 805 49.65 99.65 World Cup Gym
C 920 795 910 940 810 625 50.00
Jason Katsampes O 880 880 840 860 830 770 50.60 99.50 Parkettes
C 885 825 875 780 880 645 48.90
Mark Mehringer O 800 785 895 820 800 865 49.65 96.05 Tim Daggett
C 845 575 825 905 790 700 46.40
Chris CamiscioliO 885 705 785 850 815 740 47.80 90.45 International Gymnastics
C 825 560 820 905 630 525 42.65
Mike Canales O 790 745 735 810 735 735 45.50 87.60 Gymnastics World Gym
C 765 575 665 895 770 540 42.10
Mike Dutka O Scratch 0.00 50.00 Gymnastrum
C 940 845 860 935 825 595 50.00


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:44:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: fat tests

>
> >Another interesting note the article says that team selection includes a
> "skinfold test" (I assume for body fat percentages) which has been quite
> controiversial (I bet!).
>
> Are they using the test to detect anorexia, or do the girls have to be under
> a certain % to get on the team?
>
> Mara
>
>

I dont believe that skin fold test is worth a darn.
The only real way to do the fat test is to use the imersion technique.
Search the gymn archives from last winter for details.


Skin fold tests can bee fooled too many ways.

Detecting anorexia before someone starts keeling over or doing
"ethiopian impressions" I guess youd have to run a weekly blood chem.
Then use a computer to track weight, fat% and trend of blood chem.
When the patern shows a true pattern, you know there is something wrong and
it time to call in the head shrinks.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 21:18:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: GG: notes on Kochetkova

Notes from the AP:

-It was almost exactly two years ago that Miller last "failed" to win
an AA. Her silver in Barcelona was on July 30, 1992. [Seems to me a
bit twisted that a silver medal is considered "failing" even if she is
a two time World champ.]

-Kochetkova missed the 93 Worlds with a broken leg; then her coach
accepted an offer to go to Japan. She consequently transferred to
Leonid Arkaev [where she's been for a year], and under his training
finished 3rd at this year's Worlds.

-"Goodwill Games founder Ted Turner and Jane Fonda were among the
sparse crowd at the Sport and Concert Complex."

And now from the UPI:

-Kochetkova's birthday was four days ago (when she turned 17).

-An amusing quote: "[Kochetkova is] the first girl to beat Miller in
an all-around competition in two years, since Tatyana Gutsu of the
Unified team did it at the Barcelona Olympics." [Somehow, I don't
think that Gutsu remembers her victory as having been fortunate enough
to beat Miller.]

-UPI *seems* to imply that after scoring errors were adjusted,
Miller's floor score was 9.9 and Kochetkova's was 9.925. It's very
confusing. The Russian judge who awarded Kochetkova the 10 was
Tatiana Zamotailova.

Nunno: "There were mistakes on every routine. But I think the closest
we saw was on the floor exercises."

-Kochetkova is coming back from a foot injury.

-Arkaev, re the coaching switch for Kochetkova: "You can't pick your
parents."

-"'I think I did fine today,' said Kochetkova, who barely cracked a
smile during the interviews after the competition. 'But I expected
much more.'"

----------------------------------------

And finally, *K*udos to Nancy Raymond for picking the winner based on
the first letter of the last name ('86 was Kolesnikova; '90 was
Kalinina; '94 is Kochetkova).

My oh my. <wink>

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 11:43:11 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: GG: notes on Kochetkova

>-UPI *seems* to imply that after scor>ing errors were adjusted,
>Miller's floor score was 9.9 and Kochetkova's was 9.925. It's very
>confusing. The Russian judge who awarded Kochetkova the 10 was
>Tatiana Zamotailova.

9.912 to 9.9 based on one judge scoring a 10 instead of the 9.9 she
intended makes sense if and only if there were 8 floor judges whose
scores were being counted (.1 difference divided by 8 is .0125, rounds
down to .012) which I kind of doubt, but I don't know... but why would
Kochetkova's score have changed too? Or did someone press the wrong
button on her routine too?

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 07:02:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: <***@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: GG: say what??

This is from an AP wire story:

Nunno: "Maybe Dortmund is not the place for her. It is a team meet,
not an all-around. I don't want to hurt the U.S. team standings by
pulling her out, but it may be in her best interest.
Going into the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 she needs to be the
leader obviously. She has been in every international meet she has
been invited to. Shannon needs a little time. After the national
championships (Aug. 24-27 in Nashville, Tenn.), we are going to pull
back and rehash things ... and see where we need to be a year from now
and two years from now."

Miller: "Last night showed me how much I have to clean up my landings
and my routines. That put the pressure on a little more to clean them
up ... in my head as well as on the floor."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 23:20:15 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: GG: Shannon in beam finals?

> How did Shannon make beam finals with such a low score in team finals?

How can Shannon be in beam finals? Two of her teammates, Thompson (9.55) and
Webster (9.6) scored ahead of her.

Also, does anyone have the list of EF qualifiers?

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 23:40:18 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Goodwill Games

To All:
You know, in basketball and football, one of the things that makes it so
exciting to watch on television are the announcers. They get excited about
certain plays, show some emotion and get even non-sport people interested
somewhat.
Think back to the most famous bit of announcing in gymnastics history. It
was when Olga Korbut did her bars routine and the announcer kept saying,
"Watch this! Watch this!"
Why don't we have this in gymnastics television coverage anymore? Why must
the commentators treat it like golf? I'd love to see a commentator get
excited and get us excited, too. I'd like to hear them raise their voice
after a great routine.
On a final note, why did Kathy Johnson ask the stupid question of Shannon
Miller "gaining weight." This weight gain was a great, wonderful thing, but
the way it was asked, it sounded like, "So, how are you going to deal with
this problem."
Sigh. And we're trying to discourage anorexia.
Great going, Kathy.
--- Ron

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 09:22:04 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: Goodwill Games Coverage

I hate defending TV coverage - since it generally annoys me also, but I
have been learning too much about how difficult it is to allow this
constant insult to add to the injury those of us who can't afford to go the
actual meet must suffer...

>Helena Robinson writes .....
>- How long did it take for Bart & Kathy to get around to providing SCORES???
> Then again, maybe they were working with the folks from German TV. ;-)

Some people who do stats - I'm one of them - actully like to make sure that
the ones being announced are correct - therefore they (I) won't release
them until I have double checked with the judges sheet. Inquires,
conferences, and other assorted items will often make a score change and it
will never get flashed. There is also the problem of the incorrect score
being flashed - I will never rely on those boards again as a final score,
the feeling of guilt that rides with a person when an award is taken away
from a gymnast (yes, this has happened to me) is unbelievable - it is worth
it to wait, because it is the gymnast who matters and not the tv audience
---SORRY you guys lose, but the gymnast wins.

>_ To add insult to injury, did anyone catch either commentator IDENTIFYING A
> SINGLE VAULT??? I found it frustrating hearing Kathy (often) saying
>something
> like, "She does this vault so well." WELL, WHICH VAULT IS IT?

Read my previous post about being a commentator. In some cases they can't
identify the vault, unless they are posting its number, many vaults are
variations on themselves. In some cases even the judges don't know which
vault a person is doing - so depending on the quality of the vault they
will decide which one has been done. Shocker eh???? Those suckers are
hard to identify in some cases.


Hope this makes watching a little easier.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 23:42:16 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: GWG/Prodigy

To All:
For those of you not familiar with Prodigy, you can view Associated Press
photos online without downloading them. Today, one of the photos was of
Shannon Miller mounting bars.
Prodigy has designed the photos so that you can save them to your
scrapbook and then save them on your computer as GIFs, PICTS, or whatever
format you use.
Pretty cool.
--- Ronald

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 13:03:49 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Kochetkova

I first saw Dina Kochetkova in '92 Junior Europeans and at the time
I don't know any of the gymnasts taking part and she was the one who
made the most impressions on me. But then she disappeared for the whole
of '93 whereas others from '92 Junior Euros (e.g. Fabrichnova, Cacovean,
Lussac, Hatagan, Rusan, Khorkina, etc.) blossomed. I thought my taste
was bad and picked a 'baddy' to support. (Sounds as though she was injured)
And now she's back (with a bang) which makes me happy.

I also saw a documentary (it's not that long, only a few mins) on Dina's
quest for the '92 Olympics. The TV followed her around at home, in gym
and in gym school (There was a shot when she sat on her bed with her head
down drawing a nice 'teddy bear' type-of-thing on a piece of paper using
brightly coloured pens... <cute>). It showed her eating a bowl of potatoes
as dinner... Anyway she didn't succeed in making the Olympics of course,
she finished well down the list in the Trials. Dina also expressed a strong
desire to leave Russia (the documentary said).

Has anybody else seen this? (I was given it by a penpal)

Sherwin

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 17:54:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: now dont be hasslin' them thar rasslers !

Not vbeing a wrestler, and remembering painfully the thrashing that members of
the wrtestling squad loved to give the "school geek" (me) I still must defending
olympic type wrestling. The point is not to clober someone. In fact
I doubt "body slams" are allowed. The point is to pin your oponent to the mat.
Wriggling out of a hold is also good for points. Wrestling actually has
skill finesse and even a tad of strategy involved.

Now I dont really consider WWW federation wrestling.
I call it good theatre.
I mean look at the show those guys put on.

Dont rank wrestling with boxing. Now boxing as we know it now is truly sick.
Traditional boxing, Marquis of Queensburt rules, is actually a gentlemanly
sport. But no one follows those rules anymore. The original point was to
score by evading the other guys blocks. Usually both parties left the floor
with almost no injuries. The way it is done now, it is more like a controlled
brawl.

Fortunately greco-roman wrestling has not turned into the bloodsport that
boxing has become. Presently boxing is sick. WWW wrestling can be entertaining
at times, boorish at others. G-R wrestling should not be confused with these
things.

Whew! I cant believe I stood up for my old HS bullies.
Hey ! Alan ! Peter ! Dean ! Where ARE you ? Im ready to clobber you NOW !
MWAHAHAHAHA !!!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 23:20:21 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: now dont be hasslin' them thar rasslers !

>Not vbeing a wrestler, and remembering painfully the thrashing that members
of
the wrtestling squad loved to give the "school geek" (me) I still must
defending
>olympic type wrestling.

You can calm down, texx, I'm not bashing wrestling (in fact I have no
interesting in wrestling, amateur or otherwise, at all). My point is that
gymnastics is always picked on as such a 'dangerous' sport, while there are
plenty others with just as much risk involved that producers wouldn't think
of doing pieces on.

If there's anyone out there that watches college or pro football, have you
*ever* seen a piece discussing the dangers to young boys of participating in
football?

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 23:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu>
Subject: now dont be hasslin' them thar rasslers !


> You can calm down, texx, I'm not bashing wrestling (in fact I have no
> interesting in wrestling, amateur or otherwise, at all). My point is that
> gymnastics is always picked on as such a 'dangerous' sport, while there are
> plenty others with just as much risk involved that producers wouldn't think
> of doing pieces on.
>
> If there's anyone out there that watches college or pro football, have you
> *ever* seen a piece discussing the dangers to young boys of participating in
> football?

No, but I wish they would. A few years ago, I was walking by the football
field at our high school, and stopped for a minute, noticing a large group
of people by the field. A few minutes later an ambulance pulls up, and I
found out from a friend that the person playing (I believe a sophomore in
high school) had broken his neck being tackled.

As far as I'm concerned, pretty much all sports have some inherrant risk,
being physical activities. But sports that are primarily in existance and
popular because of the violence involved, and that result in that kind of
injury, on purpose, just disgust me. Now I'm sure that breaking the klids
neck was not intentional, but that injuring the kid was bad enough in
itself, and that kind of result was bound to happen eventually. I feel
the same way about a number of sports, which is why I prefer sports that
are more for personal betterment (is there such a word? ;) and the only
competition involved is of a friendlier sort, where the desire is to
achieve more, not prevent your opponent from achieving more.

Moral moment over. While I don't really know much about wrestling, I
think it might be possible to, as exx describes, have it more of a
competition of strngth and strategy (as it were) but I'm afraid that is
not how the sport is advertised, and not the reason a great many people
enjoy it.

Sorry. Try again. Moral moment now over. (again)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 22:12:44 PDT
From: <***@cisco.com>
Subject: now dont be hasslin' them thar rasslers !

If there's anyone out there that watches college or pro football,
have you *ever* seen a piece discussing the dangers to young boys
of participating in football?

First of all, I do NOT believe that gynastics is particularly harmful
to young girls.

The point is that "young boys" DO NOT PARTICIPATE in football, wrestling,
and other dangerous sports. These sports, you start your serious
competition in high-school (14-17ish), (eg boys are useless as sports
before puberty, and if they do play, there are lots of little rules and
special cases that protect them from injuries. (Little league is actually
very impressive in the ways the rules change as the players age.))

In "women's" gymnastics, you'd better be "national calibre" by the time
your reach 15, not just starting.

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: now dont be hasslin' them thar rasslers !

> > You can calm down, texx, I'm not bashing wrestling (in fact I have no
> > interesting in wrestling, amateur or otherwise, at all).

You spoke of it in such an evil tone, although I have little interest,
taking swipes at true wrtestling was unfair and they needed someone to
take the position of advocate. I really dont know why Im defending them.

Now I could understand your distaste for football and present day boxing.

> > My point is that
> > gymnastics is always picked on as such a 'dangerous' sport, while there are
> > plenty others with just as much risk involved that producers wouldn't think
> > of doing pieces on.

In fact they dont talk about gymn being dangerous except for the whole feeding
issue.

> As far as I'm concerned, pretty much all sports have some inherrant risk,
> being physical activities.

Earlier this year someone posted data showing gymnastics & wrestlers being
the most dangerous sports in injuries. More even than precious football.
We will have to tolerate some of the coverage on the dangers because face it,
we ARE the most demanding sport there is. The injuries WILL happen.
I do get tired of them focussing on the eating disorders on the girls though.
Yes the eating disorders are a problem but there is more to gymn than that
and they should not dwell on that one aspect longer than due.

> Moral moment over. While I don't really know much about wrestling, I
> think it might be possible to, as exx describes, have it more of a
> competition of strngth and strategy (as it were) but I'm afraid that is
> not how the sport is advertised, and not the reason a great many people
> enjoy it.
>
Well where I am, I find that real wrestling is ignored as badly as gymnastics.
I see nearly NO coverage of it. On ABC you might get 3 min of it here and
there and thats about it. I kinda feel sorry for them, having close to the
same media indifference as we gymnasts do.

I dont see wrestling even hyped about the strength.
What I see about it is skill (can you wiggle out of what he puts you in ?
can you put him into something he cant wiggle out of ?)
Really there is a lot of brainwork in wrestling.

Regarding the broken neck issue, yeah the game is dangerous, but worse is the
way it is played. We teach our kids to go out and purposely hurt the other guy.
When my folks were in college USC (University of Spoiled Childeren) sent their
most worthless player out on the field to purposely kick the knee (with cleats)
iof Cal's best quarterback. Of course the guy was benched for it, but he was
the least useful player and he took out the best player of the other side.
If all you care about is winning, it was a briliant stunt. But if you care
about ethics and fair play, it sux the big one. Perhaps football isnrt so bad.
Its just that we teack kids to play it in the manner that people get hurt.
Ever notice how few injuries you have with "flag football" ?
I played football at lunch one summer while working at the toxic chemical
facility for Chevron. We played regular tackle football. We played on grass
that grew through holes in concrete block turned on its side. It looked like a
real lawn untill you reached down and felt the brick. This was so that
emergency vehicles could get in without sinking into the mud in winter.

Anyway, we were pretty rough and playing almost on concrete.
We had few injuries. Why ? Because our goal was to move the ball, not beat
that tar outta the other side.

Twas an interesting summer...
Ever actually see phosgene gas ? Didja know cyanide smells like almonds ?

After the crap I took from the team at my high school, I am shocked to be
sticking up for that sport. Truly shocked. Whats happening to me ?
Am I developing a sense of fair play ? I should hope NOT !

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 09:04:21 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: TBS coverage

Elizabeth asks:

For that matter, I found it very amusing
>after Knizhnik's bar routine, you can very clearly hear the Russian announcer
>introducing Dina Kochetkova on vault (and obviously pronouncing her name
>correctly), and 3 seconds later either Kathy or Bart pronounced it wrong! Can't
>they hear the announcer in the arena?

The answer to that last question is "NO" - if they have on headphones they
can't hear what is going on in the areana. Rather there are people in the
truck monitoring the cameras - they tell the announcers where and who they
are going to be showing next, the announcers are then to watch that person,
and make comments on the routine, while they are commenting, they are often
being told of the next event and competitor they are to be watching. When
a quick cut is done - you will notice that commentators will still be
finishing up the last person when a new person is being shown.

The job is difficult and frustrating. Often leaving the commentator
feeling like they havn't seen enough to really enjoy the meet. I was asked
once to do a PSU meet for local TV, tried just one routine and told them to
find someone else. I couldn't concentrate on the gymnastics with all the
gibberish going on in my ear - try it sometime - talk about gymnastics with
headphones and music, with words that you can understand, on playing in
your ears - you might talk about toe point only too.

But,
>then, I wonder who has control of the camera and what routines are shown?

The people in the truck who don't know a damn thing about gymnastics - my
experience at NCAA Nationals has been (the TV people sit next to me because
I keep the stats) that they will often radio back comments I make about a
particular gymnast so the people in the truck watch him. When they find
out that I know the gymnast and the routines - they will ask when the
person will be up and then tape him (I work men's meets), therefore on
occasion, someone they would never cover ends up being shown. They really
need people on their crews who know what to watch, the experts have little
to no ability to tell them - this person - once the meet begins.


Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 20:58:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: <***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu>
Subject: Women's AA, ABC style

> Okay, this isn't strictly gymnastics, but why are the inbetween
> segments for ABC *this* lame? Hello, I think everyone is doing drugs with Bart.
> Earth to ABC sports... do y'all have to be this stupid when covering women's
> events, like the triathlon (3 syllables, yes...) and gymnastics? I don't recall
> this much stupid stuff inbetween during the boxing coverage.

I only caught part of the gymnastics today, but then, it was mixed with
some very odd other casting. While the documentary on women in
contemporary Russia was all very interesting (albeit oddly balanced), it
didn't quite fit, and the odd jump to a discussion concerning the
relationships between the two members of the US archery team were all very
well.. (not that they were. They gave scores for archery and nothing
else. Usually we like to limit special interest to sports televised)

One thing that really shocked me was the faces of the gymnasts. No one
smiled at all. A certain ammount of stress and anticipation is expected,
but even after they had finished for the day, there weren't any smiles.
There were frowns, concerned looks, shaking heads, etc. I think this is
just a restatement of some of the conversations we've had before, but at
that age, such complete dedication and involvement cannot be that good for
a person. No one looked happy to be there (except for the audience at
times ;). I know I would be happy to be there (well, there are no doubt
problems with that statement, but you know what I mean ;).

OTher qualms.. Commentators. "Kathy Johnson, you're right" .. hmm. I
was not impressed by the (lack) of display of knowledge of what was going
on. I'm at times not sure if I don't prefer to just town the volume all
the way down and not hear the commentators making gasping fish noises into
the microphone and saying "wobble" "falter" "oooo" "amazing" "not quite
perfect"and things about scores that are, I'm afraid completely obvious
(such as .241 or greater, or maybe equal..). I wouldn't turn it all the
way down though, as the sproing sounds of the vaults seem somewhat neccesary.

Anyhow. Does anyone know the times of the ABC broadcast tomorrow
(Monday)? I know the TBS times have all been posted, but I didn't see the
ABC ones.

Thanks. I still don't have any answers for my CMU/Pittsburgh question in
an email a few days ago, so if you're holding off to prevent overflow of
my mailbox, don't hold off. My mailbox will overflow anyway, so it might
as well overflow with something useful.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 21:38:16 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Women's AA, ABC style

>Anyhow. Does anyone know the times of the ABC broadcast tomorrow (Monday)?
I know the TBS times have all been posted, but I didn't see the ABC ones.<

ABC is only covering the Games during the weekend.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 21:52:59 -0400
From: ***@cykick.jvnc.net
Subject: Women's AA, ABC style

>Anyhow. Does anyone know the times of the ABC broadcast tomorrow
>(Monday)? I know the TBS times have all been posted, but I didn't see the
>ABC ones.

ABC is only broadcasting on weekends during the day. TBS is doing all
evenings. (Only be careful - coverage is one hour shorter tonight due to
the Goodwill Team v. Dream Team II basketball game.)

More comments - even though I missed ABC's stuff today and only saw the 1st
rotation on TBS tonite:

1. If you think gymnastics suffers from subjective scoring, go check out
the boxing coverage. Under the new scoring system, 3 of 5 judges need to
agree that a single punch is a punch - by pressing a button within 1
second of each other. What's really interesting is seeing how each judge
scores punches vs. the numbers that appear on the screen (these cards are
only used in case of a tie).

2. Someone complained earlier that commentators appear to be criticizing
non-American competitors more than the members of the U.S. team. Maybe
we're making up for lost time. Way-back-when, before U.S. gymnasts were
considered competitive, I recall much more criticism of the Americans - and
much more fawning over those who weren't. Granted, there was a BIG
difference then, but one didn't hear as much nit-picking as we do today.

3. BTW, gymnastics got a mention during ESPN's "Sports Reporters" today.
Christine Brennan of the Washington Post did her parting shot on Christy
Henrich and related concerns over eating disorders. Very nice. If
anyone's interested, it's repeated later at 3:30 a.m. EDT.

Gotta get to bed...
Helena
------------------------------

End of gymn Digest
******************************