gymn Digest Wed, 16 Feb 94 Volume 2 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:

Art (2 msgs)

College Notes

Dave's shellacking

Example of Burnout

gymn judging

Hilton International

Men's Gymnastics (3 msgs)

More Bits & More Pieces (2 msgs)

My two cents on Men's gymnastics

outfits

Parkette Invite (2 msgs)

PB and PH (5 msgs)

Peachtree Classic (was: Hilton International)

remarks on dorsal swing

Ron will kill Men's Gymnastics

Saluting (5 msgs)

Saving Men's Gymnastics (3 msgs)

Shannon's Vault at Peachtree

Speaking of Parkette's...

Trivia Set #11, questions

UF-Auburn Women's College Meet

UF-LSU Women's College Meet

Zone meets (2 msgs)

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 16:22:15 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: Art

I am completely baffled by those drawings people are using to explain moves

(giant varieties most recently). Can someone explain?

Bruce: I thought men get a 0 for not doing the vault flashed?

: ~) (spitcurls?)

Gimnasta

PS: Toby: thanx for the message from Mario & Fico!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 21:29:18 -0500 (EST)

From: <***@dorsai.dorsai.org>

Subject: Art

> I am completely baffled by those drawings people are using to explain moves

> (giant varieties most recently). Can someone explain?

> Bruce: I thought men get a 0 for not doing the vault flashed?

> : ~) (spitcurls?)

> ~

> Gimnasta

> PS: Toby: thanx for the message from Mario & Fico!

There is no deduction in the code for not doing the vault that is flashed. In

NCAA and other meets in this country there is no requirement to flash the

vault number at all!!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 19:42:47 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: College Notes

To All:

Here are some women's collegiate gymnastics notes:

**The University of Florida, because of injuries and one girl who quit

the team, is down to 7 scholarship gymnasts and one walk-on.

**Hey, get this: Texas Women's University's Becky Faulkner is in the

top-20 rankings on balance beam at 17th place! Go Becky! It's not often to

see a Division II team member in the elite of the top 20.

**Missouri's coach (I forget his name) is the leader when it comes to

coming up with neat meets. He already holds the Cat Classic where he invites

every team in the country named after a cat (like the Auburn Tigers, Penn

State Lions, etc). Then he has a Shakespearean Festival meet, where the "Best

Actress" is crowned instead of the top all-arounder, and so on.

Now he's come up with a third one for next yar. He got Cadillac to bring

in all these Cadillacs to spread around the competition floor. Missouri will

then invite the top teams in the country for a little mini-nationals. The

winner will get a very, very expensive trophy. And what will this meet be

called?

Why, "The Cadillac Classic," of course.

**By season's end, LSU could very well contend for 2nd or 3rd place in

the country. This team has a few nagging injuries right now but has scary,

scary depth. When the injured gymnasts are back in the lineup (they're ALL

expected to be back), this team will be formidable if they get consistent.

Even more, they're a young team.

**When Auburn competed against Florida at Auburn this weekend, that was

Auburn's *FIRST* home meet of the year. Unbelievable. Head Coach Robert

Dillard said he had trouble scheduling otherwise.

**It was kind of pathetic to see the little support that Dillard gets at

Auburn. He was having to run around just before the meet and worry about

paying the judges, making sure the score cards were up, getting little

clerical things in order, etc. Instead of coaching, he was doing stupid stuff

that Auburn administration should have others doing.

Tell me, would they have their football coach, Terry Bowden, running

around to make sure the refs were paid minutes before the game? No, of course

not. Auburn has one of the country's best gymnastics progrms, and Dillard

should be coaching before the meet, not trying to single-handedly run it.

**Kim Watanabe. Folks, remember that name. She's an Auburn Tiger, and I

beleive she's on the edge of greatness. Folks, on bars, she throws a

giant-full to a rafter-reaching reverse-hecht and then a giant-full to

another reverse-hecht, catching in mixed-grip. Folks, she had problems on

beam and floor, but her routines nevertheless took your breath away. When she

had falls, you wanted to say, "Wow! Did you see that? It was incredible!" I'm

telling ya', she's going to be a great one.

**Hey, how about New Hampshire? They were a no-name team a year ago but

could very well win the Northeast Region, beating Penn State.

--- Ronald Dupont, Jr. in Gainesville, Florida

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 19:33:50 PST

From: "***@us.oracle.com"

Subject: Dave's shellacking

Hmmm...

I have come to trust Daves opinion over the months.

It has been pounded into my skull over the years everytime I get into a

gymn program, that what you learn trying to master PH give you great

advantage in other events. I am constantly told that to excell in other

events, I must master PH. I am constantly told that without getting PH under

my belt, I stand doomed to fail all other events.

Dave says Im all wet on this, hmmm...

Now ya got me ALL confoosed ! I mean I trust Dave, but I also take the

word of all these instructors too. What gives ?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 19:41:12 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: Example of Burnout

Folks:

We all hear about burnout in gymnastics, but for the University of

Florida's women's gymnastics team, the burnout of one gymnast came as an

utter shock.

Here is a short story that appeared in "The Gator Scale":

---

It had been two years since the mother of Gator Gymnast Kristi Bluett had

seen her daughter compete. So when Florida opened the season against North

Carolina State, Paula Bluett drove five hours from her home in Athens, Ga.,

even though she knew her daughter wasn't scheduled in t

he lineup.

One week later, Kristi did compete, but this time it was in Kentucky, and

her mother wasn't there. By the time the third week rolled around, it was

apparent Kristi still wasn't goin

g to be in the lineup.

"She was disappointed she wasn't going to be able to compete," Paula Bl

uett said. Her daughter really wanted to show off in front of Georgia, which

had recruited her.

Despite knowing her daughter wasn't in the lineup, Kristi's mother

traveled again to Florida, to cheer on the team. But when it came time for

the floor routines, Paula's face lit up. Amy Myerson was recovering from a

cold and asked to be taken out of the lineup. That meant Kristi would

perform. Her mother sat in

the front row of the bleachers, beaming with joy and anticipation.

Kristi was first up on floor and nailed her first and second passes as the

crowd cheered. But then came the third pass -

a full-twist to an immediate front flip (called a punch-front). Kristi had

trouble with the move in practice. But in that night's routine, in front of

6,516 people, the gymnast from Athens nailed it and e

arned the highest floor score in her life (a 9.625).

Paula cried.

The two years of

waiting and all the 5-hour trips to Gainesville had paid off.

"I was so excited for her," Paula said. "It was her first home meet, and

it was in front of Georgia. And the response of the crowd was ver

y wonderful."

One week later, in a move that shocked the team and fans alike, Kristi

told Head Coach Judi Avener that she wanted to retire from the team and give

up her scholarship after the season.

Avener said the reason was not based on personality conflict or injuries

or anything negative:

"Her heart is just not in the sport any more."

--- Ronald Dupont, Jr. in Gainesville, Florida

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 00:18:09 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: gymn judging

I definitely meant showing or announcing the start value *after* it is

determined by the judges.

I've thought about the idea of submitting the contents of the routine ahead

of time, but I haven't thought of any way to work it that I like. The

objections Rachele mentioned are good.

I'm not sure I feel the same way about saying ahead of time what the vault is

going to be, though. Vaults happen *so* fast! In reponse to Rachele's

question, the judges judge the vault the gymnast performs (not the one

flashed) from the start value of the vault performed, and then 0.30 is

deducted from the score by the STC ("scientific technical collaborator" = the

one who determines/has final say on the start value) or Expert (the Expert is

sort of like the old "head judge" but with less power); in other words, the

0.30 isn't taken off by each individual judge.

Rachele asks:

"Like, say Elena Piskun says to the judges "I'm doing a

double-twisting Yurchenko." Then she vaults, but didn't get a great block

off the horse and so does only a single twist instead. Let's say, however,

Piskun did a "perfect" single-twister. (I know, hardly likely if she didn't

get great block.) What would she score? (FYI to others, a double is worth

10.0, and a single is 9.8.)"

She'd score a 9.5

Each individual judge would hand in a 9.8 and the STC/Exp would deduct 0.30,

getting a 9.5, which would be Piskun's score.

Rachele again:

"As I understand it, each judge on a panel must determine the start value on

their own. Does this mean that sometimes judges on the same panel are

starting from different scores, or do they collaborate to make sure they are

all starting a gymnast from say, a 9.8?"

No -- the STC calculates the start value and her say is final. She and the

Expert can discuss it, but what she says goes. At smaller meets, though,

I've seen more informal work, with other judges comparing start values with

the STC and discussing differences.

Back to the Code discussion:

I do kind of like the idea of an open-ended system. I haven't worked out a

model, but I don't really like the 10.0 ceiling. There (supposedly) was some

experimentation in the USSR with this, but I never heard any evaluations of

it.

I think rhythmic might have a system where one panel does pure execution and

another does composition/presentation. That's something to think about, but

there would have to be some firm guidelines for the latter, in order to avoid

the senselessness that (apparently) goes on in figure skating (I'm not well

versed in figure skating scoring, but there seems to be a lot more room than

in gymnastics for judges to do whatever they want -- is there anyone

qualified to comment out there?) (and on the rhythmic?).

On a thread from a few days ago, now that I've mentioned rhythmic, since they

can judge only one gymnast at a time, I think they do the rotating-event

thing Rachele mentioned about (artistic) trials in '89. One does rope, while

the judges score another does hoop, and so on with all four events (during

all-around, not finals of course).

Bedtime for me!

: )

Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 19:25:11 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: Hilton International

The Associated Press reported the results of the Hilton International at the

Cobb Galleria Centre in Smyrna, Georgia. This meet was formerly called the

Peachtree Classic.

Team

1. Dynamo, 152.95 points

2. Brown's, 150.00

3. Quebec Gymnastics Federation, 147.25

Junior All-Around (13-and-under)

1. Veronique Leclerc, Quebec Gymnastics Federation, 37.575

2. Tanya Maiers, Dynamo, 37.55

Events

Vault: 1. Shannon Miller, Dynamo, 9.9

Bars: 1. Miller, 9.85

Beam: 1. Miller, 9.875

Floor: 1. Soni Meduna, Dynamo, 9.75; 2. Miller, 9.65

They did not report results of a Senior All-Around competition. I don't know

if there was one or not (I would think so, and with scores like that, Miller

almost certainly won). Does a 9.9 on vault mean that she probably attempted

her double-twisting Yurchenko??

Leclerc is the third-ranked junior in Canada. Maiers is the second junior in

the US, and Meduna is the #3 junior.

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 00:23:24 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: Men's Gymnastics

To All:

Phew! When I wrote my first message about saving men's gymnastics, I

expected to get some jabs, but *boy,* did I ever get some jabs. I really

appreciate the input though (minus the insults of one writer).

Folks, as a newspaper editor, I've seen so many ideas and possibilities

that have died because everybody sat around and talked about it instead of

doing something. When I see what's happening with men's gymnastics, I feel

like a friend is dying and everyone is standing around, saying, "Should we

call a doctor, or see if he gets better first?"

I know my suggestions are radical, and I have rolled around these ideas

in my head for some time.

Pearls made the point that this is artistic gymnastics and we have to be

afraid of changing it into an Ice Capades. I agree wholeheartedly. I do not

want to see the true form and substance of men's gymnastics diminished.

But I keep telling myself, "If we don't do SOMETHING now, there won't be

anything in the future to fix, because it won't be around anymore."

I truly feel that adding music to men's floor will attract more people,

including children, who will, in turn, join their clubs. Yes, music on men's

floor will look odd, but that will change over time and people will come to

enjoy it and want it. And once it's out in the open and people begin to enjoy

and ask for it, the idea of men dancing on floor will lose the "sissy" image

that some fear it will get.

Remember when people made fun of football players and even basketball

players for learning ballet and doing aerobics? Now, it's common. It's

recognized as a true help to players, and it has lost most of its sissy

image. I firmly believe the same could happen with men dancing to music in

gymnastics.

As for cutting two of the men's events, that certainly is the most

radical of my two ideas. I would want to try the music part first for a 3-5

years to see if that helped enough. If not, then, and only then, would I

consider the idea of dropping apparatus. I suggested the two I thought the

crowd thought was boring, but perhaps other ones, like vault, should be cut,

as Texx suggested.

By the way, someone applauded the idea of putting men's and women's

meets together. Guess what? Women's programs across the country have found

that to be detrimental to their programs. People do not like to sit through a

long, long meet, and furthermore, people do not like to be swinging their

head around to see a gabillion events going at once.

Even the most avid fan would have trouble keeping scores and keeping

track of the action. And once you start to lose the interest of the crowd,

once they no longer can sense how close two teams are, the sport is no longer

fun for the average, uneducated spectator.

Imagine if the general population had problems understanding basketball

or football. Would they show up in droves like they do now? Of course not.

They wouldn't know when to cheer, when to boo, when to give a standing

ovation, etc. As die-hard fans ourselves, we have to be careful that we don't

take a "holier-than-thou" attitude that says, "Well, if they don't want to

learn the intricacies of the sport, then tough."

We must keep the average spectator in mind. He or she must be able to

follow a meet and be able to tell what's going on and how close or far apart

the teams are.

By the way, I sat in on the NCAA women's gymnastics coaches meeting last

year and the men's delegation proposed the idea of putting the men's and

women's NCAA championships together. Folks, the women's coaches, almost

angrily, unanimously voted it down.

They pictured there being a 5-day nationals, where families no longer

would be able to travel to a national meet because of the cost of staying so

long. They pictured only small crowds showing up because they got confused

over so many people being on the floor at one time.

And they pictured their sport dying because of it.

No way, they said.

They did what they thought they needed to do to ensure their sport's

life. Men's gymnastics leaders must do the same.

Men's gymnastics needs to make a bold move soon. Likely, my answers

aren't the right ones, but somebody, somewhere has got to take the lead.

I certainly would hate in the future to see men's gymnastics fall by the

wayside and be mentioned in the same breath as cow-calling and frog-jumping.

--- Ronald Dupont, Jr. In Gainesville, Florida

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 1:10:53 PST

From: <***@cisco.com>

Subject: Men's Gymnastics

But I keep telling myself, "If we don't do SOMETHING now, there won't be

anything in the future to fix, because it won't be around anymore."

As Gimnasta mentioned, it will just remain a "niche" sport like fencing,

luge, bobsled, shooting, etc, etc, etc. Where, frankly, it has been all

along. Only the surge in popularity of women's gymnastics makes it look a

little pathetic. Men's gymnastics isn't so much dying out as it is failing

to catch on...

I truly feel that adding music to men's floor will attract more people,

including children, who will, in turn, join their clubs.

Bah, humbug. CUTTING music from beam peformances hasn't hurt women's

gymnastics a bit... I doubt that most people pay much attention to the

music in women's floor. Some people attend meets to see their friends,

some to see the moves, and some to see the bodies... When I was at Penn,

Women's gymnastics was about as unpopular as the mens team.

As for cutting two of the men's events, that certainly is the most

radical of my two ideas. I would want to try the music part first for

a 3-5 years to see if that helped enough. If not, then, and only then,

would I consider the idea of dropping apparatus. I suggested the two I

thought the crowd thought was boring, but perhaps other ones, like

vault, should be cut, as Texx suggested.

IF attendance is bad because the meets ARE in fact too long, cutting events

is NOT the first thing to try. Most men's meets these days are run one

event at a time, and it's pretty trivial to run two, three, or six events

at once. Things could be sped up even more by having multiple sets of

judges for each event. It just takes more judges ($$) and probably more

landing mats. (Well, WE had to time-share landing mats between events!)

This would have the added advantage that people could ignore events that

they found boring. (PB and PH were my favorite events!!!!) While

potentially this could result in a more strenuous meet for the athlete,

this isn't too much of an issue. At a one-event-at-a-time meet, the

problem is staying warm and limber between events, not getting tired. In a

typical practice (lasting 3-4 hours), a gymnast will (should) execute each

routine multiple times (5-20) Doing each routine two-three times (including

warm-ups) during a meet shouldn't be a problem.

Even the most avid fan would have trouble keeping scores and keeping

track of the action. And once you start to lose the interest of the

crowd, once they no longer can sense how close two teams are, the

sport is no longer fun for the average, uneducated spectator.

I don't know that gymnastics is a sport where the spectators SHOULD keep

tabs on the team scores. The thrill of gymnastics is in what is done, and

how well it is done, not in which team ends up on top. At least for me, a

little bit went out of gymnastics when the cheers were mainly because our

last girl managed to score high enough for the team to win the meet. A LOT

goes out of the sport if you cheer because the last girl from the OTHER

team DIDN'T score high enough to pull them into the lead. Sheesh! Might

as well allow the team to hire thugs to beat up on the other team! :-)

Imagine if the general population had problems understanding basketball

or football. Would they show up in droves like they do now? Of course not.

Uh. I suspect that the general population has much less understanding of

basketball and football than you think. In basketball, you throw the ball

through the hoop. In gymnastics, you fly around and try to land on your

feet. What's the difference? See any comedy for the cliche of how little

more than half the US population understands most "mens" sports. And these

sports are social events as much as athletic events. You get to be roudy

with your friends. Mabye there should be more cheering at gymnastics

meets. When a meet is held in such a large arena that people feel they can

cheer without distracting the gymnasts, they have more fun.

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 04:46:54 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: Men's Gymnastics

Ron said:

> But I keep telling myself, "If we don't do SOMETHING now, there won't >

be anything in the future to fix, because it won't be around anymore."

This comment has been made quite often, by various people. While such drastic

measures are not currently being talked about, I do feel the need to point

out that it's not like nothing is being done here. People aren't just sitting

around. Many of the NCAA coaches have been spending vast amounts of time

working with the NCAA to attempt to continue the sport at the collegiate

level. Unfortunately they haven't been very successful -- but it's not for a

lack of trying or a willingness to compromise.

Another factor to consider in music for men's floor and/or dropping two

events: we need to remember, this is an international sport. And, I might

like to point out, men's gymnastics is more popular, internationally

speaking, than women's. It has a lot more tradition and has been around

longer. For example, in the last Worlds, there were 97 women but 123 men.

> By the way, I sat in on the NCAA women's gymnastics coaches meeting last

> year and the men's delegation proposed the idea of putting the men's and

> women's NCAA championships together. Folks, the women's coaches, almost

> angrily, unanimously voted it down.

> They pictured there being a 5-day nationals, where families no longer

> would be able to travel to a national meet because of the cost of

> staying so long.

Likewise, I was at the corresponding NCAA men's gymnastics coaches meeting

last year. The plan that was proposed was not a 5 day nationals -- it was

still only three days in length, and was patterned after the proven and

successful format of the World University Games from a few years earlier. It

seems so counter-intuitive to me to split the Nationals. I like gymnastics: I

would GLADLY pay to see both men's and women's. There are MANY men's fans who

would do the same. The NCAA would have to spend less money on marketing

because they'd only have one meet to worry about. It's less expensive from

all perspectives to host the two together. Ticket sales for both women's and

men's would only increase from all the extra fans in town. I guess I am

short-sighted, because I fail to see how holding the two championships

together would hurt women's gymnastics. Every other major gymnastics

competition (except for the Europeans, that's the only exception that comes

to mind) is held with both together. The most common format I've seen is

that the men and women alternate sessions and then for event finals they come

together in two sessions, with each gender competing half of their events in

each session.

It seems sad that the women's coaches voted that down. Oh, it's fine for

everyone to say "Yes, men's gymnastics must do something drastic." But when

it comes down to it, who is there to support them? Not the women's coaches,

obviously. I was not there, so I can't judge how the coaches' response to the

plan was, but it almost sounds like they think they are too good for men's

gymnastics!

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 10:36:06 PST

From: ***@hydrogen.geoworks.com

Subject: More Bits & More Pieces

> 1. What exactly is a "wrong way Endo"? (or was that wrong grip Endo...?)

I should know that, but I've forgotten. I *believe* an Endo is a

undergrip stalder, so I guess this would be an Endo but with an overgrip,

so you have to shift your wrists as you go around. This is what we used to

call a "reverse stalder", but I'm not sure if this is what was meant by a

"wrong way Endo".

> 3. What exactly is the "dorsal requirement"? Inverted giants, basically?

Once again, more info for the FAQ (Andy, care to copy this in?)

Dorsal Cubital ("back hand") is a requirement to have giants (at

least once over the top) in a grip that has the hand in a "backward" or

twisted grip. Eagles, Inverts, Czech, German and Russian giants qualify

(Bruce or Chops: Am I missing any?)

Eagles: Similar to an undergrip giant in that the palm is up, but

the arm is twisted all the way around so the elbow is on top (the right

hand would be twisted counter clockwise). The wrist flexed (like a false

grip on rings).

Inverts: Like Eagles, but instead of a flexed wrist, the wrist is

extended so that the bar is always being supported by the hand, whereas in

Eagles the bar sometimes rests on the wrist. If you were in Eagles with

the bar in front of you your elbow would be pointing up and your fingers

and hand would be pointing up, palm towards you. If you were in Inverts

with the bar in front of you your elbow would also be up (same arm

position), but your fingers and hand would be pointing down with the palm

away from you. People doing inverts often have their head in (looking

towards their toes) and a very straight shoulder angle, which isn't really

possible with Eagles.

Eagles are easier to learn, because when you do a Jam (undergrip,

shoot your legs though your arms and dislocate to Eagles or Inverts), if

you relax your wrist it will naturally flex as it drags behind your arm.

When you go over the top it is easier for a beginner to lead with their

shoulders, so the wrist can always drag behind. If you don't lead with

your shoulders to get them over the top first, you will most likely peel

off, as your wrist is under the bar and can't sustain much weight.

If you extend your wrist you will be in Inverts and don't have lead

with your shoulders, allowing a straighter and better looking giant (as

well as being harder and requiring more arm flexibilty).

Czech: Very similar to regular overhand giants, but the hands are

widened and the shoulders inlocated. To obtain this body position and

still get over the top (you have no ability to get any momentum from your

shoulder position), you have to pike going over the top.

Russian: Like a Jam to Eagles or Inverts where the arms didn't

dislocate. The arms are behind and above your shoulders in the underhand

grip. You don't see many of these because it takes lots of flexibility and

is hard to get out of gracefully.

German: Like Russian giants but in an overhand grip, swinging the

other direction. Also not seen very often because of being awkward to get

into and out of. Most of the time it is gotten into by either stooping the

legs through and shooting out a bit above vertical into a German uprise, or

by stooping in, swinging back up on top of the bar (like a seatcircle), and

casting the hips up and behind into as extended a position as possible.

A Stoop in: | A German uprise from stoop in:

| \ \ | _____/ ________ / \ 0 0

0 0 ____\ __|_ | ____| 0 0 /0 \0 __0 /\___ /|

| \ 0 |/ | \ / \ \ --+--

| \ 0 | 0 / \ \

the move ends by |

swinging <<-- |

A German Giant after stooping in and reversing our direction:

(starting from the height of the swing from the stoop in)

0|_ \/ __|_ _\_ __ 0 0 0 / \ / \

\| 0/\ |/ \| | 0 / | \ 0____ /_ \__ ____/ /0 \0

-- 0 0 | \ \ | \ 0 0 0 / \

/ \

/ | \ / \ 0 0

/ | \ /0 \0 __0 /\___ /|

__0____ 0/ 0| 0\ ________ / \ \ --+--

/ | \ 0 / \ \

Well that took a long time (ASCII art isn't as easy as the final

product makes it look...).

I hope this helps explain some of these more complicated hand

positions.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 14:09:58 -0500 (EST)

From: <***@dorsai.dorsai.org>

Subject: More Bits & More Pieces

The special requirement on high bar for dorsal or cubital grip does not

require you to go over the top of the bar. The requirement is that you pass

through the bottom vertical in a dorsal or cubital grip with a move of "B"

value before or after. For example : A "B" value jam pass through the bottom

and then hop to undergrips meets the requirement without ever doing a full

giant in the dorsal or cubital grip. The same sequence with an "A" jam and a

"B" hop out with pirouette would also meet the requirement, again never

completeing a full giant.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 21:26:11 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: My two cents on Men's gymnastics

Well, anyone who's been on Gymn for any length of time knows that I am a fan

of men's gymnastics, so I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

Re: music on floor

I personally think this would look very strange. Not for the reason that it

would make men look like "sissies" or anything, but just because I really

like men's floor the way it is now. That said, however, I would skeptically

be willing to give it a chance. Everyone I know who saw Novikov's floor at

the pro meet in Maryland just loved it-- even people that I thought never

would have been able to deal with the thought of music on men's floor. He

used a strong, karate-type music. I'm afraid though that men's floor would

lose some integrity with the addition of music-- I wouldn't want to see men

resorting to mediocre choreography like the women have. Right after you've

gone to a men's meet, seeing one impressive floor routine after another, it's

unbelievable how frivolish and ridiculous a woman's floor can look (and trust

me, I love women's floor). Those poses and waves just don't cut it.

I must say that for pommels I need to conscientiously pay attention to it...

it's not like high bar or floor to me, which I could just watch forever and

ever without any effort. And I've certainly tried, unsuccessfully, to

understand the various moves on pommels. I don't know about doing away with

it though. I find that a lot of guys who don't know much about gymnastics

are most impressed with rings and pommels.

I second David's comments about "women in leotards" being a major attraction

of women's gymnastics. It's sad, but VERY true. Living in a college

dormitory, whenever I watch gymnastics on TV in the main lobby, I have to

deal with a lot of guys walking by and making comments that are, at best,

tasteless.

Ron, I must disagree with your comment about the length of men's meets.

Men's meets, despite the greater number of routines, surprisingly aren't any

longer than women's... men's officials have invariably run their meets faster

than the women's officials, in my experience. I think that the length of a

meet has more to do with the officials running it and the format rather than

the number of routines. Also, men seem to take less time mentally preparing

themselves for routines, getting chalked up, mat-shifting and what-have-you.

Also, I can't tell you the number of instances the audience has had to wait a

long time because a girl's floor music was broken.

Texx said about Ron:

> I notice that this is the FIRST mens gymn matter you have talked about

> in the time I have been on the list while you prattle on endlessly about

> womens gymn. My guess is that you dont understand mens gymn, AT ALL !

Texx, I respectfully ask that you take back these comments. You cannot

disqualify Ron's comments simply because he hasn't posted on men's gymnastics

before. Also, I think that Ron's posts on women's gymnastics are informed,

concise, and welcome on Gymn, and I know of several people who agree with me.

He hardly "prattles on endlessly".

Texx also said:

> It will be great fun watching you get flamed for this one

Everybody, please note that FLAMING IS specifically NOT WELCOME on Gymn. It's

of course all right to disagree, and to state your objections respectfully,

but please remember that we'd like to keep things friendly around here! =)

[To those who don't know, "flaming" is the same as "slamming", arguing with

someone in an antagonistic manner...]

To me, I think that (1) men's gymnastics needs to establish a strong identity

(too many people view it as a poor imitation of women's gymnastics), and then

(2) they need to find a way to successfully market that image to

*everyone*... kids, parents, athletic directors, tv audiences, etc.

Trivia will be posted early tomorrow morning...

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:27:51 PST

From: "***@us.oracle.com"

Subject: outfits

Remembering my days as asst mgr of a skating rink, watching preparations

for meets, and then now at my gymn I saw a notice about the required outfit

for our girls at their next meet, I was unerved.

For once the Team USA winter games uniform wasnt as dippy as usual.

But the speed skating outfits we have worn for the last few games had pretty

silly prints on them and how about that print on Tommy Moe the downhill skier?

Now for the question. I notice the guys have it easy at our gymn. They wear

the official t-shirt of CSC with gym shorts. Simple cheap etc.

EVERY meet the girls have to come out in a new outfit. And womens gymn is not

the only sport where this happens.

Doesnt this get expensive?

What if a kid finds the team uniform of the month stupid?

Why are the girls forced into a new pattern every month or so and the guys

(Thank heavens for this, PLEASE don make the guys change!)

get to stay with a more or less permanent uniform?

Doesnt this suck?

Is there a logical reason for this or just blatant sexism ?

It strikes me that with insurance rates climbing as well as gymn time, coach

time etc, buying a new uniform every meet seems to be a waste of cash that

could be put into training.

But then Im just a guy, so am I out of line for asking these questions ?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 00:20:23 EST

From: ***@aluxpo.att.com

Subject: Parkette Invite

Today's sessions ran really late so I'll only post that Dominique Dawes

took first AA and Martha Grubbs took second. We saw some really good

gymnastics and I'll post more about the meet in a few days.

Toby

P.S. gimnasta: Mario and Fico Gonzales say hello

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:58:50 EST

From: ***@aluxpo.att.com

Subject: Parkette Invite

All-Around results from the Parkette Invitational. (I'll list Vault,

UBars, Beam, Floor, AA ):

1. Dominique Dawes 9.850, 9.825, 9.350, 9.800, 38.825 (fall on beam)

2. Martha Grubbs 9.600, 9.400, 9.650, 9.675, 38.325

3. Doni Thompson 9.500, 9.450, 9.800, 9.500, 38.250

4. Kristin McDermott 9.500, 9.550, 9.200, 9.650, 37.900

5. Theresa Wolf 9.400, 9.400, 9.600, 9.450, 37.850

6. Kara Fry 9.350, 9.400, 9.450, 9.525, 37.725

7. Kristen Maloney 9.350, 9.400, 9.350, 9.550, 37.650

8. Lisa Gianni 9.800, 8.900, 9.300, 9.400, 37.400

8. Erin Musser 9.150, 9.000, 9.700, 9.550, 37.400

10.Traci Sommer 9.250, 9.350, 9.200, 9.250, 37.050

11.Sarah Balogach 36.900

12.Stacey Galloway 36.825

13.Maryann Esposito36.750

14.Katie McFarland 36.675

15.Dawnelle Barr 36.400

16.Theresa Kulikowski 36.250

17.Lena Degteva 36.125

18.Alexis Norman 36.050

19.Alexis Brion 35.85

19.Laura Chow 35.850

Talk about a three-ring circus! How about a 4-ring circus. It happened more

than once that 4 good kids were competing at the same time. And as it was,

I was timing the floor competition (I did mention to the floor judge that

spectators might like seeing the start values along with the final score -

she didn't like that idea - could be too controvercial, who knows)

I liked watching Doni Thompson. She reminds me of Amanda Borden (but I

think her gymnastics is better) I think she won the floor finals (we

couldn't be there due to L10 sectionals - and Hills wasn't there

either) on Sunday. One of her passes was a whip half, front fly spring

to 1 &1/2 which was executed beautifully. Dominique fell on her

standing front tuck on beam , took a couple bobbles on floor - but

everything else was great. Lisa Gianni's vault and double layout on

floor were great. Alexis Brion's doing a pike full-in, 2 whips to a

triple, and double back for her tumbling passes. She's still falling

off the beam all over the place, but her bars have improved

dramatically since this summer. Her teammate, another cutie - Katie

McFarland, did very well. I don't know what happened to Kristie

Powell. She scored a 9.65 on floor, 9.35 on vault, 8.150 on bars, and

didn't compete beam at all - so something obviously happened on bars.

Team Scores: Parketts A: 114.125 Hills A: 111.825 Mississauga A:

111.050 Colo. Ariels A: 110.800 Parkettes B: 109.800 North Stars A:

106.775

I'll try and find out what went on during event finals.

That's it for now.

Toby

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 18:18:43 PST

From: ***@geoworks.com

Subject: PB and PH

"Ron" writes

> I would suspect that men should do away with pommell horse and parallel

> bars. If you surveyed folks at a meet, that's where they probably doze

> off the most.

First off, I think the idea of getting rid of mens events to make

it more popular is silly. I certainly wouldn't throw things at Ron for

suggesting it though...

Men's (and women's) gymnastics won't ever compete with standard

sports for many reasons, but the largest (I feel) is simply that it isn't a

very easy sport. You can't just grab a ball and start playing with no

experience like you can with most sports. Getting the started in

gymnastics requires above average dedication and (in some cases like PH) as

much as years of work to master basic moves.

It is a costly sport. Gymnastics equipment requires lots of space

and hundereds of thousands of dollars of investment, so finding a place to

work out where you don't have to pay costly (justifyably so) club dues is

indeed rare. Luckily grips and personal equipment (tape, wristbands) are

on par with other sports.

It's not really a team sport because adding up individual's

scores doesn't take any teamwork. Sports acrobatics (two person and four

person teams on floor) is, but it is new and even less known than regular

gymnastics. Most people like team sports where they can play as a group.

These things won't go away by removing events (I wouldn't give up

any except perhaps vault because of how much of a one-shot event it is).

I'm sure in all sports you have to earn your enjoyment at the top level,

but in gymnastics you've got to pay up front and most people just don't go

for that.

"texx" responds (retorts?):

> I HATE PH and would love to be rid of it, but there is this big problem.

> If you master PH, you master the rest of gymn. Girls hate the beam and

> guys hate the horse. If you are lame on PH you are lame on the rest. If

> you yank PH, the quality of the rest of mens gymn will go down the tubes.

Whoa there texx! You are drastically oversimplifying things here.

"If you master PH, you master the rest of gymn"

#1.) Mastering pommel horse doesn't give you a free ticket into the other 5

events. In fact, I'd say it is probably the most independant of them (i.e.

the one for which the least knowledge of one event contributes to the

other). People who are good at PH are most likely good at the others

because of how long it takes to get good at PH. By then they have had lots

of time to get good at the other events.

"Girls hate the beam and guys hate the horse"

#2.) All men don't hate PH. Most men find PH difficult, lots don't like

it and some hate it. Some men (me included) love it and some are even PH

specialists (that is all they do).

"If you are lame on PH you are lame on the rest"

#3.) I have no idea where you got this impression. It is false. Look at

event specialists, many of which don't ever do PH.

"If you yank PH, the quality of the rest of mens gymn will go down

the tubes"

#4.) See above (#3)

Nonetheless, don't remove it, it is as crucial to gymnastics as any

other event.

> Yank PB ? Hey PB is as close as mens gymn gets to bloodsport. Remember,

> here in the US, bloodsport sells.

You have injuries on all events, and none of them are pretty. The

only time gymnastics crashes entertain people on TV is on "blooper" shows,

where they are out of context and don't show the whole scene (i.e. people

checking to see if they have broken their neck). This is no reason to keep

PB's, there are plenty of good ones...

I've got to go, but before I do, a quick comment on floor music for

men:

I don't dance (socially). I don't want to. I certainly don't want

to have to when I'm tumbling, as I probably wouldn't be very good at it

although I was a good tumbler.

Dance does not equal grace. Men can be quite graceful without

dance in their floor routines, and undoubtedly men could be quite

ungraceful with music in their floor routines.

I don't care what people watching TV want to see in my floor

routine, I just want to tumble.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 1:39:12 PST

From: <***@cisco.com>

Subject: PB and PH

Men's (and women's) gymnastics won't ever compete with standard sports

for many reasons, but the largest (I feel) is simply that it isn't a

very easy sport. You can't just grab a ball and start playing with no

experience like you can with most sports. Getting the started in

gymnastics requires above average dedication and (in some cases like

PH) as much as years of work to master basic moves.

Amen. And I agree that this is the crux of the matter. Gymnastics has no

"putter" level. You can't get pumped up by the meet on TV, and go out and

throw a couple of double-backs in your backyard with our kids. You can't

jump on a highbar with your buddy and have a good time, because while

neither of you is any good, you are evenly matched against each other.

(This works for Tenis, golf, and many other sports.)

It is a costly sport. Gymnastics equipment requires lots of space

and hundereds of thousands of dollars of investment...

I don't know about $100k. It's interesting that PB and PH are probably two

of the cheaper events...

"If you master PH, you master the rest of gymn"

As Dave said, this statement is bogus. It's an inversion (or some logical

operation) of a true statement "If you've mastered the other five events,

you might not have mastered Pommel Horse". PH is the "most different"

event (and therefore quite unlike beam). You can be great on PH and not be

able to do much of anything on anything else (generally, this happens to PH

specialists who aren't interested in other events), or you can be good on

all other events and really suck eggs on PH (much more common. In fact,

pretty indicitive of most "second rate" college and HS teams. When I was

competing, it was relatively uncommon for a HS gymnasts to be able to do

double leg circles. Since these are one of the major requirements of PH,

and since nearly all other moves use these as a basis, top scores on PH

might range up into the 3s, even when other events got up to 8s.) (Some of

this has changed as "real" coaching in gymnastics has occured.)

> Yank PB ? Hey PB is as close as mens gymn gets to bloodsport.

> Remember, here in the US, bloodsport sells.

Huh? I've always regarded PB as one of the safer events. I mean, if you

wipe out, you've got TWO bars to aim for, and hitting either with nearly

any part of your body is likely to be good for you. I'm having a hard time

figuring out how that guy managed to break his neck dismounting PB. (Not

that he doesn't have my sympathies, but I've seen people do REALLY BAD

double backs, and the usual recovery mode is that you catch the bar with an

arm or shoulder.) I mean, the usual body parts at risk are your toes and

your ... Oh. I see. And Men's vaulting was probably more popular when

everyone did straddle vaults?

Dance does not equal grace.

Well, texx didn't necessarilly ask for dance. He asked for music. Many

men's routines do incorporate some dance elements. And many might say that

many women's routines are no more graceful nor music-matching than the mens.

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 10:58:07 PST

From: ***@geoworks.com

Subject: PB and PH

> I don't know about $100k. It's interesting that PB and PH are probably two

> of the cheaper events...

A ringset and highbar are quite expensive. A spring floor is not

so cheap either. Add up six of these events (if not eight, should you add

beam and unevens) plus a sufficient supply of matts and extra equipment

(low bar, trampoline etc.) and I'm sure you can see how it gets above 100k

(this is not even considering monthly rent for a space large enough to hold

all of these). Talk to a gym owner about finances, most are struggling.

> Dance does not equal grace.

> Well, texx didn't necessarilly ask for dance. He asked for music. Many

> men's routines do incorporate some dance elements. And many might say that

> many women's routines are no more graceful nor music-matching than the mens.

Actually I wasn't responding to texx or anyone in particular here,

just the subject in general, as it has been kicked around on the list

lately. I think suggesting adding music presumes adding dance. What is

dance if not moving in sync to music? If your floor routine has music but

doesn't follow it, what is the point of adding it in the first place?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 11:01:49 PST

From: ***@geoworks.com

Subject: PB and PH

I just realized that this was a bit ambiguous:

David Litwin writes:

> Some men (me included) love it and some are even PH specialists (that is

> all they do).

I love pommel horse, but I'm not a specialist (I've always done all

around). It was one of my better scoring events though...

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 19:19:47 PST

From: "***@us.oracle.com"

Subject: PB and PH

Dave mentions several things:

> A spring floor is not so cheap either.

Uh Dave, cheaper than you think!

Would you like me to build one for you this summer ?

(WARNING !!! THIS IS NOT A PRANK !)

If there is sufficient interest, I will supply a postscript file with

blueprints for an aproved desing of a rebound floor. As I recall, the carpet

is the most expensive part ! (SAY WHAT ?!?)

> Dance does not equal grace.

> Well, texx didn't necessarilly ask for dance. He asked for music.

I remember reminding folks of all the grief Julius went through when he tried

music. I asked how we got started giving the girls music and all we hear is

the *THUD* of the floor as we land. I also said that we raise our male

children that "graceful men are sissies". Well hopefully most of you on this

list are the exception (you ARE arent you ?!?) but this seems not to be the

case amongst the "unwashed masses" out there.

Dave also mentioned something about PH proficiency. UH OH, time to worship

the ground tread upon by others again.....

Rachele mentioned (I THINK it was her) something about the "silly pose" moves

in womens gymn. I have thought the same but kept it to myself lest I be

classed as a male chauvanist. (Politically correct is such a pain!)

Rachele also reminds us that even if mens gymn dies in NCAA it wont die

entirely. I have no idea where our next olympic team will come from though...

Her point is valid.

The several mixed meets I have attended there was so much going on it was

difficult to process all the input. It gave me a migrane so bad I slept in the

Stanford Parking lot ! It would be interesting to study the distraction factor

amongst the athletes though.

OK, Im back. I just spent 2 hrs watching Walter Cronkite on TV with about 3000

other people. In another 2 hrs from when I post this, a significant piece of

history will be taking place. I sure you, it will change your lives and those

of your children forever. It will also help mens gymnastics. It might not

save the NCAA program, but the sport will recieve more coverage in the future.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 07:34:33 -0500 (EST)

From: ***@marie.stat.uga.edu

Subject: Peachtree Classic (was: Hilton International)

(Hmm...wonder why this didn't send the first time...)

Thanks to Toby, I now know why I didn't see Dominique Dawes

or Alexis Brion when Raul and I went to the Peachtree. (Hilton is the

corporate sponsor and the name's in the process of changing.) I have

absolutely *no* meet results, except that Shannon Miller turned in a

yawn-inspiring performance, and Jullie Ballard -- a Georgia Level 10

recruit for next year -- *SLAMMED* her vault and won her all-around.

She did a HSP front pike (SV: 9.80) and scored a 9.60! I have *no*

idea where she lost 0.2; neither Raul nor I could see 0.2 worth of

deductions.

A TX Club called Gizi's Gymnastics fielded a couple of "cute

pointers" -- tiny gymnasts that are *so* cute, they get "cute points" --

(Melinda Baimbridge & April Burkholder) and Jesse Lemp, who did a

Rulfova-flic! I'd never seen that move before; it was *SO* awesome!

It's a full twisting flic-flac to a swing down straddling the beam.

You could tell she was nervous about it; she practiced it on the mats

over and over, and right before she did it on beam, she took a

l o o o o n g pause... and hit it!

Oh, Shannon did impress me once: she did a full hop to an immediate

Jaeger, kip up to h/s, giant to Tkatchev. Three release moves

back-to-back. I didn't see her vault clearly enough to know what she

did (Raul...?), but I recall her taking a step on the landing. The

local paper had said something about the "Miller Thriller," but I have

no idea what it was supposed to be. I heard later that Steve Nunno --

yes, I did see both the King and the Queen -- was sort of trying to

have Jennie Thompson win the meet. As I recall (and later someone

said), Jennie had a fall (on beam??), so that kinda killed that. Raul

and I were pulling for Tanya Maiers (of Dynamo) since she's a Georgia

native. :-)

Brown's was also there and fielded a strong team. Again, I later

heard out of the corner of my ear that the Russian team (or maybe just

several members) came to the U.S. when the USSR 'collapsed' and left

them without a place to practice. With names like Anna Andreeva, Elena

Fazlieva, and Marina Frolova, I can believe it. Anyone else heard

anything about this? Anyway, there's this one girl named Marina Vidas

who's very powerful. Ron: you got anything on her?

I must also make mention of the presence of the Canadian teams.

Sometimes, their gymnastics weren't as colorful or as dynamic as those

from U.S. teams, but those girls had *heart*! One of them stole my

heart for the meet: Alexandra Dalakain. She was *so* solid on beam in

the practice gym, but when it came time to compete, she just couldn't

hold it together.

The meet went from 3:30pm 'til 8:30pm! Five hours, seven flights

competing at once. Ugh! And they went s o o o o o s l o o o w l y .

ESPN was there, and I heard it'll be on sometime in March. We saw

Kathy Johnson, so I assume she'll commentate.

randy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:42:21 -0600 (CST)

From: <***@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>

Subject: remarks on dorsal swing

Is this requirement an Americanized rule or is it from FIG? Obviously,

Dorsal requirement has been around "forever", but it wasn't until

recently that you didn't have to go over the top. I find it rediculous

that you don't have to do a full giant. If you can't do a jam, then do

a different entry into a dorsal swing. It's too bad that inverts are

such a novelty in our country. In the other top gymnastics countries,

their kids are taught three types of giants when they are young: front

giants, back giants, and inverts. Eagles are about as impressive as

doing a back lever for a strength requirement on rings. And I don't

think that Czech giants count as dorsal requirements anymore. Has

anyone done or seen these giants performed correctly in the last few

decades. Most people end up looking down at their belly and hoping the

judge is sneezing at the same time.

For my first posting to this mailing list, I hope I didn't annoy too

many people. But if I did, let me know. I'll reword this and set the

world strait on how high bar should be swung. ;-)

David

On Sun, 13 Feb 1994, Bruce wrote:

> The special requirement on high bar for dorsal or cubital grip does not

> require you to go over the top of the bar. The requirement is that you pass

> through the bottom vertical in a dorsal or cubital grip with a move of "B"

> value before or after. For example : A "B" value jam pass through the bottom

> and then hop to undergrips meets the requirement without ever doing a full

> giant in the dorsal or cubital grip. The same sequence with an "A" jam and a

> "B" hop out with pirouette would also meet the requirement, again never

> completeing a full giant.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:13:21 PST

From: "***@us.oracle.com"

Subject: Ron will kill Men's Gymnastics

Ronald Dupont, Jr. in Gainesville, Florida posted over the weekend and now I

have a couple retorts;

I must warn you that I found Rons post to be QUITE flawed and my response is

blistering. Please do NOT take my response out of context ! Get the WHOLE

picture before you flame me.

I also get the DEFINITE idea that Rons objectivity is biased. While I loudly

disagree with him, DO NOT construe ANY of my remarks to be sexist or anti

womens gymn, OK ?

Ron begins innocently;

> To begin with, many sports, from baseball to hockey, have changed the way

> their sport is filmed and played in order to make their sport more attractive

> to both live audiences and television audiences.

Yes, we now encourage poor sportsmanship on the hockey rink and we have made

figure skating a contact sport, all in the name of ratings.

(Good heavens above ! What HAVE we DONE ?)

> For example, hockey is coming up with a new puck that will appear fire

> red on television, making it easier for the viewer to see it. And hockey has

> decided to put the camera in different places so as to allow the viewer to

> see the sport from different angles.

There is history behind the camera issue. (Texx puts on his broadcasters hat)

The first television cameras were huge bulky things. You almost climbed inside

the bloody things. Some were the size of a VW Beatle ! TV cameras were

banished to the back rows of the arenas or the steel catwalks above. Now

professional cameras are almost as small as a palmcorder, and considerably

cheaper (Early cameras cost as much as $200k when new homes sold for $10k).

With all this new technology, you can NOW stick 2 dozen cameras around the rink

cheap and run them remotely without eating up front row seats, something that

concerned arena operators for years

("You get those cameras out of there unless you wanna buy seats for them!") I

dont think this applies to gymn though. We ALREADY use minicams at close range.

One local network now multiple mikes EVERY piece of aparatus. They try to get

every squeak of the leather grips.

Rons next point:

> And this is the first problem with men's gymnastics -- a single meet is

> just way, way too long. Between the march-out and the awards-stand ceremony

> at the end, a men's meet can take three hours or more. And if there is

> multiple teams, the meet can drag on and on and on.

What meets YOU been going to ? Out MY way they are over WAY too fast !

Actually the judges conferences are the biggest bore factor. I cant remember

EVER attending a 3 hr mens meet.

Ron, you REALLY stepped on a hornets nest here:

> Men's gymnastics must take a bold, bold step and knock down the apparatus

> to four. Now please don't throw things at me for this shocking suggestion.

{...}

> I would suspect that men should do away with pommell horse and parallel

> bars. If you surveyed folks at a meet, that's where they probably doze off

> the most.

I notice that this is the FIRST mens gymn matter you have talked about in the

time I have been on the list while you prattle on endlessly about womens gymn.

My guess is that you dont understand mens gymn, AT ALL !

I wont throw anything at you, and you seem to be so clueless about mens gymn

that you probably dont even own a set of grips for me to grease !

Toss out PH ? Thats a BAD idea ! I HATE PH and would love to be rid of it,

but theres this big problem. If you master PH, you master the rest of gymn.

Girls hate the beam and guys hate the horse. If you are lame on PH you are

lame on the rest. If you yank PH, the quality of the rest of mens gymn will

go down the tubes. Imagine yanking beam outta womens gymn. (I dont wanna even

THINK of it!) You want something boring to yank ? How bout vault. Blink your

eyes and its over. Its my best event, but Id understand if it got yanked.

Yank PB ? Hey PB is as close as mens gymn gets to bloodsport. Remember, here

in the US, bloodsport sells.

> Next, ask yourself, just why is women's gymnastics so, so successful? Are

> the women throwing more tricks than the men? No. Are they throwing the tricks

> higher and better than the men? No. Then why do people flock to women's

> meets?

Tacky sexist remark warning!

Friends & family go to see friends & family. Unrelated women go to support

womens sports, and surveys show that unrelated men go for what theatre &

broadcasting calls "T & A". As crude as this may seem, it is a fact. You

would be horrified to be in the control room when womens sports are being

televised. I am most embarassed to admit that I have gotten used to it. I

thought about giving you a sample, but then I decided I'd better not. Even I am

not THAT crude! It gets BAD in there. Horrifying is when we have a woman as

director, we STILL choose our shots in a sexist manner. I expected that women

directors would put an end to it but unfortunately the ratings systems

prevailed !

Ron has a valid point here on this next issue;

> The answer is simple: floor music. If it wasn't for the floor music,

> you'd see women's gymnastics begin to head down the tubes. People look

> forward to the floors *because* of the music. Whether it's elite meets or

> college meets, people get pumped for the floor music, and the television

> audience loves it.

> In order for men's gymnastics to succeed, they *must!* add music to the

> floor routines.

But dont forget Julius experience when he tried it. He had a hell of a time

convincing them there was no rule against it, the women loved it and the guys

gave him no small ration of grief over it. This ties in with my point last

week that we are raising our male children wrong. I actually think that our

planting ideas of what is and what isnt "macho" is the TRUE reason mens gym has

always had trouble and especially now.

{...}

> And programs wouldn't be cancelled.

No, they will continue to be killed because of the "non macho" rep mens gymn

has. It will take an entire generation or raising our kids RIGHT befoer we can

erase this whole bad rep. Guys are told that they arent SUPPOSED to be

graceful !

OK, Ron, NOW you are close to the real reason mens gymn is in trouble;

> Now I know there are some out there who say men can't dance or look like

> sissies dancing. That's just not true. I've seen several male gymnasts, just

> for fun, set their floor routines to music. And when they did, every head in

> the auditorium turned to watch. A men's explosive floor routine, if set to

> music, can be more popular than a comparitive women's routine.

Ron! Now YOU are the one making sexist remarks ! It will be great fun watching

you get flamed for this one;

> Men can do harder tricks, jump higher, flip higher and be more aggressive.

> They must take advantage of this if they are to save their sport.

*I* for one would NEVER make this mistake of trying to out flip Mary-Lou or

Keri Strug etc.... (Laughter)

> They must do away with two apparatus and add floor music.

I really cant help but wonder, since he has established himself as a womens

gymn booster, is he trying to cut mens gymn to 4 events because he is jealous

of our 6 ?

> I really feel that is the only way to stop the sport from being nothing

> more than a memory in the U.S. by the year 2010.

If we follow your lead I GUARANTEE it will be history by 2010.

BRAAAPP! Thank you for playing, try again, NOT !

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 11:10:57 -0800 (PST)

From: <***@engr.ucdavis.edu>

Subject: saluting

I have another question. At several recent gymnastics meets at

my school, I've noticed the judges saying something to the gymnasts just

before they were saluted. The judges comments usually seem to be

followed by an array of grins from the gymnasts. I've never seen this

occur on television, but then I think the networks probably run

commercials or fluf pieces during the salutes. Does anyone know what the

judges are saying? Is this just a local phenomenon? Also, where does

saluting come from? How did it originate, and why? (OK, so I had more

than one question... :) ).

-Michael

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 18:17:43 -0500 (EST)

From: <***@dorsai.dorsai.org>

Subject: Saluting

The saluting or aknowledging the judge is in the code. If it is not done it is

a .2 deduction. The gymnasts in the meets you have seen (I don't know what

level may have known the judges over a period of time and you were just

witnessing some idle chit-chat. Local meets can be much more informal than

large meets.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 17:29:54 PST

From: "***@us.oracle.com"

Subject: saluting

I'd like to add an anecdote to Mikes question about saluting.

We got this one judge who comes out to the college meets in the bay area,

who carries a small green flag. Most of the judges tell the gymnast when

to go ahead. Sometimes there are miscomunications. This judge takes no

chances. The staff is about a foot long (30.5 cm) and the little green flag

is triangular and about 4" on a side (10cm). Cute gadget and sure avoids

foulups. Wish the other judges would adopt the idea.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 18:21:33 PST

From: <888@cisco.com>

Subject: saluting

At several recent gymnastics meets at my school, I've noticed the

judges saying something to the gymnasts just before they were saluted.

The judges comments usually seem to be followed by an array of grins

from the gymnasts.

You stand there waiting for the judges to finish computing the last

competitors scores. When they're done, they look up, you salute or

otherwise indicate that you are ready to go, and the judges tell you to go

ahead. Sometimes in as many words, sometimes in an amusing or personalized

way. Then you step onto the mats and start your routine.

I've seen gymnasts forget to wait for the judges. Usually the judges are

more or less bemused by such things, and there is a deduction. If you screw

up your routine and storm off the mat at the end without the finishing

acknowledgement to the judges, then in theory they can deduct 0.1 for each

step, until you sit down. There are also deductions for profanity, and

hitting the equipment in anger/disgust. Needless to say, these seldom occur

in high-level competition.

A lot of young girls have a whole entrance/exit procedure and style drilled

into them. I suspect this is mainly a sort of meditation to keep them calm

under pressure.

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 21:41:18 EST

From: ***@aluxpo.att.com

Subject: Saluting

Some judges definitely chit-chat with the gymnasts - sometimes to put them

at ease. The floor judge I was sitting next to would say stuff like - Now

that beam's over, you can enjoy yourselves...which would get giggles out

of the girls.

Toby

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 19:43:42 EST

From: ***@aol.com

Subject: Saving Men's Gymnastics

Many have asked if there is a way to save men's gymnastics programs.

Well, there is. And you need to look no further than women's gymnastics and