gymn Digest Sat, 5 Feb 94 Volume 2 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
"masculinity" & men's gymnastics (2 msgs)
men's floor exercises
Men's gymnastics loss of popularity, & our troubled times
Miller a wisp? (3 msgs)
Oops!
Proposition 48 (2 msgs)
Sponsorship
Tidbits
Trivia #10, answers
Various
Winter Cup - Compulsories

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 12:44:59 PST
From: "***@us.oracle.com"
Subject: "masculinity" & men's gymnastics

My last post was MUCH longer than I intended it to be. Sorry folks !
It was also quite a bit more caustic than intended. I got going and
just could not stop. While it rambled, it brought in many problems in
the world that manifest themselves in many ways including mangling
mens gymnastics popularity. It also served as quite a catharsis.

Now down to brass tacks;

Rachelle's comments:

WHAP ! THUD ! I DESERVED THE SPELLING CHECK. I often work with a
single l Rachele, so I am not used to a 2 l Rachelle.

So you cant start NCAA after 21 ?

I'll look at Miller again befgore I take any more POTshots at her size.

I agree, extending mens cvoverage should not be at the expense of womens
coverage.

Interesting research from Rachelle about the perception of mens gymn
being a mere imitation of womens gymn. I am not surprised, considering
some of the nasty remarks I have heard made at mens gymn. Perhaps this
is part of the bad rep we are fighting.

I have noticed the extreme public displays of affection men gymnasts
put on with their girlfriends. Its sad that one has to put on a show.
Affection is nice but when you have to use it to put on a show, it
cheapens it, dont you all think ?

Rachelle's AOL bill: OK Then you must not be spending the huge blocks
of time I though you were.

With regards to adapting u-bar to h-bar & vice versa, it looks like
Rachelle & I agree to disagree.

Clive explains superbowl:

It was the only thing on at 11pm at night with only 4 channels TV gets
a bit boring at night, and everybody watches the Superbowl in the UK
just so they can say the next morning at work "Did you watch the game
last night" to which everybody says "yes I did but I fell asleep
because it was so boring".

{Texx roll on floor laughing because it so true !}

Clive continues:

The announcers or commentators are usually big fans of the sport they
cover so thay have an interest in it and they don`t endlessly rabbit
on about nothing, they actually try and make the sport interesting to
the viewer.

And they don`t have to worry about plugging the sponsors.

--
Unfortunately here in the states we arent so blessed as you over the pond.
What they think makes the sport more interesting here is called adding color.
If what they have to say is color, Ill take basic black thanks!
American commentators drone on & on saying nothing but drivel.
--

Gimnista notes:

The vast majority of people I've met express nothing but awe at the
abilities (and bodies) of male gymnasts (usually they mention rings).
I have heard of people who think differently, but to tell the truth, I
don't know that I've met any. Still, I don't think that if someone
wanted to join or put a kid in a "masculine" sport, gymnastics would
pop to mind.

--
This is what I mean abiout the bad rep we have.
__

Andy writes: How can you tell if a gymnast (or any athlete for that
matter) is gay based on their performance? Just can't imagine someone
saying, "Man, did you see that guy do that inverted iron-cross? What a
fag!"

--
I dont see that but I have often heard things like "Why are you going
to a gymnastics meet? Who wants to watch a bunch of fags prancing
around ?" And of course I have bored you to tears with what our
coaching staff said in High School. I hear less despariging remarks
against gymn nowadays because I simply avoid the class of people who
make such remarks.
--


Once again gimnista shows her true genius;

I think Andy misunderstood me. I didn't say (or intend to say, anyway)
that you can tell whether a guy is gay by watching his gymnastics
performances, but there are people who think you can, and my point was
that among these people are many male gymnasts. Consequently, they try
hard not to appear effeminate because they might be thought gay. It
shows on floor mostly, but also elsewhere. Guys do funny-looking
arabesques because it's the "masculine" way of doing them. They salute
a certain "masculine" way. Everything is done in straight lines and
sharp angles, no curves or softer movements. I think this masculine
stereotype and fear of appearing less than masculine is the reason why
style is so lacking in men's FX (and elsewhere). It's all so
mechanical and the routines all look alike. I'd love to see some
Baryshnikovs out there who can dance *and* do great tumbling (I
suppose these last two sentences might apply equally to women). I'd
love to see a guy do even just a split leap. I'd love more to see some
of the incredible leaps male dancers can do.

--
Yes indeed, this fear mangles the style, grace and finesse of the
sport. On the other hand these straight lines with no curves are
sometimes called "Soviet Technique" and we all know who always wins
mens olympic gymnastics , dont we ?
--

Final note, I made mention how we should go after sports sponsors and
demand that they sponsor more gymnastics. I see a horrible loophole in
my point. Do we REALLY want a beer company to sponsor gymnastics?
GYmnastics is a sport celebrating development of the entire body to
perfection. Perhaps alchohol is not apropriate. I am horrified that
MacDonalds corp is a gymn sponsor. Im glad to see sponsorship, but we
sure stooped pretty low to go to a junk food joint for our
sponsorship. Ocean Spray, Quaker Oats, Evian, Dole Fruit, San Filippo
Nut Co, etc would be far better sponsors.

Well back to the drawing board.... ("..and to my cat, -a boot to the
head!") -- Tai Kwon Leap

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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 18:13:00 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@sosi.com
Subject: "masculinity" & men's gymnastics

> Rachelle's comments:
>
> WHAP ! THUD ! I DESERVED THE SPELLING CHECK. I often work with a single l
> Rachele, so I am not used to a 2 l Rachelle.

HellOOOOOOOOOWWWAAAAA!!! At first I thought this was a joke.

The correct spelling of our beloved GYMN mgr is:

Rachele Irene Harless


Andy

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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 12:12:01 PST
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: men's floor exercises

gimnasta writes (regarding men's floor ex):

It's all so mechanical and the routines all look alike. I'd love to see some
Baryshnikovs out there who can dance *and* do great tumbling (I suppose these
last two sentences might apply equally to women). I'd love to see a guy do
even just a split leap. I'd love more to see some of the incredible leaps
male dancers can do.

It's all surely personal preference, so I certainly can see your
objection. I used to think men's tumbling was kind of on the dull
side, too. But now, the thought of adding dance to it just doesn't
sound good to me. I guess I'm biased in that I've always found ballet
(and figure skating) to be uninteresting. And it's the tumbling that I
find really cool (especially now that I'm trying to do it myself.)
Maybe the guys could work a little bit on connecting their moves
together better, but this is true with all the events for both men and
women. The women, even with the dance elements, often don't connect
things incredibly well. Maybe if judges paid closer attention to this
aspect of floor, the fluidity would get better.

-George A.

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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 16:40:58 PST
From: ***@hydrogen.geoworks.com
Subject: Men's gymnastics loss of popularity, & our troubled times

> A "wuss" cant do an iron cross, let alone an olympic cross.
^^^^^^^^^

Phrased this way it would seem an olympic cross is more difficult
than a regular cross. Actually they are pretty much the same.
Try a front lever: now *there* is a hard move that never gets any
respect... (I'd say it is harder than a cross).

Dave Litwin

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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 14:09:49 -0600
From: <***@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Miller a wisp?

I'm going to have to go with Rachele on this one. Miller is a wisp.
The problem I think is that TV distorts perspective a LOT. It's called
a zoom lense. Everyone on TV, takes up the whole screen and so you
tend to lose the image in you head of how big they really are. (same
idea goes for magazine pics.)

Granted, you can usually tell that (s)he is bigger/smaller than the
average person... but that's about it. You can't tell just how big
Shaq is by a TV appearance, just that he's big. Same for Miller (only
opposite). Even if you see them next to someone whose size you know,
you still don't get the depth (or lack of, in Shannon's case)
perspective.

Until I met her in October, I didn't _really_ realize how, well, wispy
4'6", and 80 lbs is. It fits.

Efton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Feb 94 16:46:27 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Miller a wisp?

> problem I think is that TV distorts perspective a LOT. It's called a zoom
> lense. Everyone on TV, takes up the whole screen and so you tend to lose
> the image in you head of how big they really are. (same idea goes for
> magazine pics.)

Thanks to Efton for agreeing, but I'd like to point out that even on TV or in
magazine pics, Miller looks amazingly thin. When seeing her on TV or in
magazines, my friends have commented more than once "Is she anorexic or
what?" (And for the record, that's just a random comment, with no basis
whatsoever.) Look at her and tell me that she looks like she is just two
months shy of 17 years old. But see, that is part of her (and female
gymnasts in general) popularity.

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 94 17:33:58 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Miller a wisp?

my old comments:
> "Is she anorexic or what?" ... just a random comment, with no basis
> whatsoever.)

Clive wrote:
> No basis in fact, but probably true.

I don't think it's a good practice to say that Miller (or any other
thin gymnast) is "probably" anorexic without any proof. Anorexia is a
serious subject, of course, and I feel very uncomfortable at
stereotyping "wispy" gymnasts as "probably" anorexic. There have been
several gymnasts with eating disorders in the past, as I have pointed
out before on Gymn, but it's not fair to assume that therefore it's
true of all thin gymnasts.

> Are you saying her popularity is based on the fact she is
> very much underweight and looks alot younger than her
> true age rather than her ability to perform.

No. Definitely no.

I am saying that, in my opinion, her popularity, and that of the
entire sport of Olympic level women's gymnastics, is *in part* due to
the fact that the athletes are tiny and very young relative to most
other Olympic caliber athletes. However, Miller's and other female
gymnasts' ability to perform is also a major factor of the
popularity... the popularity would not exist at all if Miller were not
able to perform. However, obviously, the top athletes of all sports
are able to perform. I think though that the thing that characterizes
women's gymnastics and sets it apart from other sports, in the
public's mind, is the unique age and appearance of the athlete.

Rachele

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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 94 18:16:13 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Oops!

I sent "'masculinity' and men's gymnastics" by mistake. The final version is
under my message "Various."

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 94 17:33:12 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Proposition 48

Julius wrote:
> Prop 48 applies to everyone ... Isn't it something like four
> years to compete in a year year period after graduation?

Proposition 48 has nothing (or very little) to do with the issue of
when eligility ends... it's almost entirely a piece of academic
legislation. The only part that is even slightly relevant is quoted
below:

14.3.1 ELIGIBILITY FOR FINANCIAL AID AND COMPETITION.
"A student-athlete who enrolls in a Div I or Div II institution as an
entering freshman with no previous full-time college attendance shall meet
the following academic requirements... to be considered a qualifier and thus
be eligible for financial aid, practice and competition during the first
academic year..."

-------
Gymnasts generally don't have a problem with 48...

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 09:24:27 -0600
From: <***@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Proposition 48

Sorry. I meant that Prop 48 applied to all incoming student athletes.
The comment about length of time for elegibility was a seperate
comment.

We've actually had a couple of gymnast fall under prop 48. It's worse
for them then say some athlete in another sport because how do you
maintain gymnastics skills without a gym or coach?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 11:12:44 PST
From: "***@us.oracle.com"
Subject: Sponsorship

I was concerned with gymnastics in its search for sponsorship, that it
might find itself in the unenviable position of becoming allied with
an alchohol company.

Clive replied:

Most sports are celebrating development but I am personally not
worried by such associations, we have the Carling FA Premiership, the
Fosters British Grand Prix and many other such sport and beer
associations.

But I don`t think Budweiser and Gymnastics is the kind of image they
want to promote.

>I am horrified that McDonalds corp is a gymn sponsor.

Why ?

>Ocean Spray, Quaker Oats, Evian, Dole Fruit,
>San Filippo Nut Co, etc would be far better sponsors.

Don`t forget that alot of those products are completely irrelevant to
the rest of the world. And since all sponsors are trying to promote
their image and their goods there is not much point in trying to
market a product which is unavailable in the rest of the world.

===

Hmm.... Well lets start with sponsorship domestically for these
products.

Evian spring water is available almost worldwide.

I am concerned about Mac Donalds Corp because of the poor nutrition
content in their product and am embarassed to have them allied with
the sport of gymnastics. MacDonalds includes something from all the
food groups including the grease group.

I thought uaker oats was pretty worldwide as well as Dole fruit. Dole
is one of the larger manufacturers of Ascorbic Acid USP (Vitamin C)
Cranberries are a rather American phenomena, unfortunately. Good old
CJ is great on the training table. But Ocean Spray also sells other
fruit products overseas I thought. Someone wanna check this out for
me?

Now Ill admit defeat on the Sanfilippo Nut Co of Barrington Hills Ill.
They are only US domestic. (One of the great american business success
stories too! Rags to riches, from a stall in a Chicago marketplace to
a multi million $ business. Good example for gymnastics wold. But I
digress here...)

I'd be inclined to pursue the shoe companies but so many of us
gymnasts go barefoot! (grin)

The Fosters Grand Prix and the Carling Premiership, I know nothing of
so I cant comment on them. Are these gymn events ?

I need to point out here that I am not anti alchohol. Indeed I do
consume but my consumption drops when Im in training.

So am I right in understanding that the list would NOT be embarassed
if the only sponsors of gymnastics programming were alchohol & junk
food companies ? Am I an oddball for being embarassed over such ?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 94 17:34:16 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Tidbits

Here are a couple small items from the collegiate newsletter "The Gymnastics
Insider" that I thought would interest Gymn:

"UCLA is currently working with USA Gymnastics to continue the men's program
at the university as a regional US training center for male gymnasts."

"One reliable source has reported that Chelle Stack, a frmer US Olympian, has
been deemed eligible by the NCAA to compete for Oklahoma and is now honing
her gymnastics skills."

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 94 12:30:04 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Trivia #10, answers

###################################################################
# #
# ________ G y m n ________ \ | ___ #
# o __o |o |o (o #
# An electronic forum !__ \! ! ! \. #
# for gymnastics. ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== #
# #
###################################################################

o o o o o o o Gymn Trivia Set #10 o o o o o o o o o

TOPIC: NCAA Men's Gymnastics
note: I can't remember if we're on #10 or #9...

--Q1. Who is the winningest coach in NCAA Men's history?

A. Gene Wettstone, Penn State, has won 9 titles. The winningest *active*
coach is Francis Allen, Nebraska, who has coached his team to 7 titles.

--Q2. Who were the top three teams at the last Championships? What
about 1992?

A. #1 Stanford, #2 Nebraska, #3 Ohio State. It was the exact same
order the year before, too.

--Q3. In one instance, three generations (in terms of coach-athlete)
of gymnasts have won the Nissen award. Who are the three?

A. Abie Grossfeld (SIU) won it in ?.
Grossfeld coached Peter Kormann (SCSU) who won it in 1977.
Kormann coached Mike Racanelli (OSU) who won it in 1990.

--Q4. Which years did John Roethlisberger win his three NCAA
All-Around championships?

A. 1993, 1992, and 1991. He won the USGF Championship in 1993, 1992,
and 1990.

--Q5. The competing members of the 1992 men's Olympic team all
competed collegiately at one point. Name their affiliations (by their
last university attended).

A. Trent Dimas (Nebraska, one year)
Scott Keswick (UCLA)
Jair Lynch (Stanford)
Dominick Minicucci (Temple)
John Roethlisberger (Minnesota)
Chris Waller (UCLA)

--Q6. What is the smallest margin that a team has won by?

A. One-tenth: 1968 (Cal 188.25
over SIU 188.15)
1970 (Michigan 164.15 over Iowa St. 164.05)
1990 (Nebraska 287.40 over Minnesota 287.30)

--Q7. Who was the highest individual finisher at Nationals last year?
(By this I mean, the highest finisher who did not come with a team to
back him up.)

A. Chainey Umphrey (UCLA) was 2nd. Darren Elg (BYU) was 8th, and
Barry McDonald (Ill-Chicago) was 12th.

--Q8. Which teams and individuals have the highest GPA?

A. Team: 1. Cornell (3.616), 2. MIT (3.316), 3. Kent State (3.236), 4.
Nebraska (3.22), 5. William and Mary (3.17), 6. Cal-Berkely (3.165),
7. UMass (3.059), 8. Temple (3.00), 9. Pittsburgh (2.978), 10. Ohio
State (2.932)

Individual: 1. Josh Saegart (Neb) 4.0, Danny Akerman (Temple) 4.0; 3.
Burkett Powell (Neb) 3.94, 4. Shawn Winnick (Cornell) 3.93, 5. Evan
Richman (Berkel
ey), 3.82

-info from NACGC 1993 All-America Scholar Athletes, printed in IG,
Dec 1993, p. 45

--Q9. Three-time NCAA Champ John Roethlisberger comes from a family of
Olympians. Who are the other Olympic Roethlisbergers?

A. Fred (dad) competed in 1956, sister Marie in 1984, and John himself
in 1992.

--Q10. Several recent big international names have gone into NCAA
men's coaching. Name two.

A. The two I know of (there are more, I'm sure) are Alexandre
Kolyvanov, who now coaches at Iowa, and Vladimir Novikov, who nows
coaches at Penn State (both are assistant coaches).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Feb 94 18:01:03 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Various

The vast majority of people I've met express nothing but awe at the abilities
(and bodies) of male gymnasts (usually they mention rings). I have heard of
people who think differently, but to tell the truth, I don't know that I've
met any. Still, I don't think that if someone wanted to join or put a kid in
a "masculine" sport, gymnastics would pop to mind.

Andy writes:
How can you tell if a gymnast (or any athlete for that matter) is gay
based on their performance? Just can't imagine someone saying, "Man, did
you see that guy do that inverted iron-cross? What a fag!"

That was pretty funny, but I think Andy misunderstood me. I didn't say
(or intend to say, anyway) that you can tell whether a guy is gay by
watching his gymnastics performances; I think that's absurd. There are
people who think you can, however, and there are plenty of male
gymnasts among these people. My point was that (whether they go so far
as to be anti-gay or not) many male gymnasts are defensive about their
masculinity, and (even if they don't buy the idea that artistry =
effeminacy = gay), they try hard not to appear "effeminate" because
others might think them gay. It shows on floor mostly, but also
elsewhere. Guys do funny-looking arabesques because it's the
"masculine" way of doing them. They salute a certain "masculine" way.
Everything is done in straight lines and sharp angles, no curves or
softer movements. I think this masculine stereotype and fear of not
living up to it is the reason why style is so lacking in men's FX (and
other events too). It's all so mechanical and the routines all look
alike. I'd love to see some Baryshnikovs out there who can dance *and*
do great tumbling (I suppose these last two sentences might apply
equally to women). I'd love to see a guy do even just a split leap.
I'd love more to see some of the incredible leaps male dancers can do.
So I guess I'm saying not that gayness is reflected in performance,
but that anti-gayness (at worst) or fear of being labeled gay (at
best) *is*. And I think that inhibits the potential for artistry and
originality in men's gymnastics. Final note: I thought the Canadian
men's (Alan Nolet and Mike Inglis [?]) floor routines at Barcelona
were creatively choreographed and I enjoyed them.

Moving on, Clive writes:
everybody watches the Superbowl in the UK just so they can say the
next morning at work "Did you watch the game last night" to which
everybody says "yes I did but I fell asleep because it was so boring".

This in the country that plays cricket?!

On gymnasts inventing more than one move: There is a Gaylord I and a
Gaylord II, but other than that, I've heard only the same name used
with the event or kind of move specified (unless clear from the
context). Thus, a "Shushunova on bars" (as opposed to floor) or a
"Comaneci dismount" (as opposed to release).

In Puerto Rico we always do men's and women's meets together ($ and
attendance reasons, I guess). I think they're a lot more fun that way.
It's been done at Stanford, too. Event finals at Worlds and Olympics
are often done that way as well. The drawback is that it can make for
a long meet.

Jair is done with his eligibility, but I'm not sure he's actually
graduated academically.

Someone said Dominique deferred; I don't think that takes a year of
eligibility. I think it starts when you enroll. You get one year
during which you can redshirt (not compete but still have your
scholarship) and still have four years of competition w/ scholarship.
I think the age max is 25. As a Stanford alum, I'm incredibly psyched
at this news; is it certain?

: )
Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 94 13:28:43 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Winter Cup - Compulsories

Reuters Information Services reported the following results for the US Winter
Cup Challenge compulsory competition:

1. John Roethlisberger (UMN) 55.90
2. Scott Keswick (UCLA) 54.80
3. Mihai Bagiu (Gold Cup) 54.10
4. Steve McCain (UCLA) 54.05
5. Chainey Umphrey (UCLA) 53.90

For the record, only one of the above (McCain) has a conflict with NCAA's.
All of the others have finished their NCAA eligibility.

We'll hear about the optional results from our own cub reporter, Andy, who's
attending the event. Whoo hoo!

Rachele

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End of gymn Digest
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