GYMN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1995 to 5 Apr 1995
There
are 25 messages totalling 635 lines in this
issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Question on floor
2. tv
overkill (3)
3. Mtn Pacific stuff (4)
4. Stupid Announcer Tricks (2)
5. New (Anti-)Gymnastics
Book (2)
6. Weird Annoucements/Calls: (2)
7. Floor mats
8. TV Overkill
9. Floor Mats
10. Opinion poll
11. substituting
gymnasts (was tv overkill) (2)
12. TV (or rather VCR) alert
13. New Ideas
14. ESPN announcers
15. subbing in
for 'injured' teammates
16.
Peachtree Invitational (or was it Kodak?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:03:07
-0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject:
Re: Question on floor
Josh has a good point about 3 layouts in a
row.
Most guys Ive seen trying it, end up leaving
teeth marks in the
gym floor .
(the hardwood flr, cause they long
since went off the edge of the spring floor!)
In fact Iv eseen some pretty messy crashes doing that.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:49:47
-0400
From: ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject:
tv overkill
i don't know about anyone else but
i lost count how many times i saw
kim's fall off beam in '92 and
then tatiana's fall off beam...
i am looking for opinions here-
what do y'all think about the way the
'soviets'
used to sub in people if the 'good' gymnast did not make
finals-like
in '90 Goodwill Games when svetlana was 'subbed'
for
chusovitina who was
apparently 'hurt' or in '92 when roza galieva was
pulled so tatiana could compete in the all-around??? adrienne-no pretty
signature
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:32:18
-0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject:
Re: Mtn Pacific stuff
>
> >
This meet, the Mountain Pacific Sports Federation Championships,
> > is what the Pac10 championships used to be. The Pac10 was worth
> > holding anymore after Arizona and ASU dropped their programs
(and
> > now UCLA does not have a
team).
(klaxon horn blast)
UCLA DOES
INDEED have a team, it has just been pulled out of the
NCAA.
But it exists and I watched it compete @ Stanford in Feb !
Donno if AZ still
has a team anymore or not. I think
they went from an NCAA
team down to a club
team.
> > So they
picked up a couple more
> > teams, BYU, New
Mexico, Air Force, San Jose, Oklahoma, and maybe
> > one more. I
believe that Track and Field also holds a MPSF championship
> > meet.
Ah so THATS how SJSU got in on all this.
Untill very recently, they have been a real joke.
Looks
like they have risen to the occaision rather
well.
> When did they start this? Last time I was at Stanford during the
season
> was '92, and they were still doing the
Pac-10 "Invitational" (as opposed
> to
Championships b/c of the lack of teams) and I had never heard of the
>
MPSF until now.
HE HE HE
HAW ! I thjink I got a tshirt from that meet !
Ill check when I get home tonight (Im on night shift again)
If its the meet I think it
was, I was astonished at how not one of those
kids
from Arizona managed to stay on the pommel horse through a full routine...
(MEOWR!!
CATTY remark)
I think it was also the meet where I ended up sitting
with Mrs Bender
(Jeff's Mom) and we had a grand
old time. It was 1/2 way through
the meet
before I realized who she was. We had a blast !
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:42:27 MET
From: ***@SEPA.TUDELFT.NL
Subject:
Re: Stupid Announcer Tricks
Actually, I thought the highlight of that
broadcast was learning all
about
the town of Delft.
Oh, and the break to see football players wives
cook.
Mara
No
offence taken, but I am from "beautiful" Delft.
A few years ago
there was a gymnastics display in Delft, this
with
a few "minor" gymnast.
Tatiana Toughikova,
Tatiana Druchinina and Grigori
Mitsutin
You know what the speaker said
about Grigori,
THEY DIDN'T SENT THERE BEST
GYMNASTS, HE AIN'T THAT GOOD.
Chantal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:34:55
-0400
From: ***@CORNELL.EDU
Subject:
Re: New (Anti-)Gymnastics Book
> ... intensive pressure often results in both psychological
and
> medical disorders, and these young women
athletes are sometimes
> driven beyond the breaking
point. This is a
groundbreaking
> report on the rampant abuses
behind the scenes of this intense
> subculture. Author tour. Appearance on the Today Show."
>
"...could be at the mall shopping till they
drop?") What really
> angers me though is the unconscious attitude underneath
all
> this highly publicized concern, that
somehow girls are too
> delicate and should not
be encouraged at such a "tender" age to
> achieve
greatness through a hard and demanding sport.
>
> ...end to all of the above. BUT these problems can exist in
>
ANY sport, or, for that matter, in any artistic field, or area
> of academic competition--in short, wherever success is
measured
> by not only the hard work, long
hours and personal sacrifice of the
> given
individual, but also by the emotional, financial, and
> reputational commitment of that individual's coaches,
teachers,
> and parents. We don't like to see the problems arise,
but they
> do, unfortunately. However, they also pop up just in
living
> through your average work or school
day! Life is hard enough
> for *most* of us to get through with our self-worth
intact.
> Should the road to achievement, though, whether in sports or
anything
> else, be blocked off for some
because of age or gender? This is
my
The "gender bias" concerning criticism of gymnastics
has been mentioned
before. The specific case I'm trying
unsuccessfully to completely recall
compared
something like Kim Z's failure to win at Barcelona (which many
writers decided to use as a justification for the general
condemnation of
gymnastics) vs. a paralyzing
football injury which was brushed off as bad
luck. Similarly, the recent chaos surrounding
figure skating brought to
light the "dark
side" of women's figure skating/training. How often does
any
men's sport get blasted for "overworking" its participants?
The
negative focus on Zmeskal's "failure", and,
more recently, SI's rather
negative focus on
Shannon Miller's broken win streak also points out another
problem with sportswriting in
general: Success-orientation. Frequently now
winning
IS the only thing that matters. If
one isn't on the top of the medals
stand, one is
a) not commented on or b) is going on a downslide.
Adding this to the
gender-bias (which I certainly agree occurs) doesn't
make
the situation any easier on gymnastics, where scoring is so tight and
so many things can happen that one's best performance is all
anyone can hope
for.
I'll take a look at
the book, too, but this is my additional .02 for now.
--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:21:41
-0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject:
Re: Weird Annoucements/Calls:
> Usless-waste-of-television-coverage-of-gymnastics:
>
>
In 1987 at Rotterdam, ABC REPEATEDLY showed Ana Manso
(I think) crashing a
> Yurchenko to her back,
and Iveta Polokova missing
her grip on her Tkatchev,
> hitting
the low bar, and sailing forward about 10 feet. Talk about
> bad publicity and overkill.
That was a Japanese
gymnast, but I forget which one.
But what I thought
got repeated *way* too
many times was Tim Daggett's injury.
Didn't they
at one point show it four times
in a row (one regular speed, then like 3
slo-mo)?
To this day the memory of that sound makes my stomach queasy.
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:24:44
-0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject:
Re: Floor mats
> >Well, in my high school, the floor ex mat was
sloped severely, so
> we had to tumble
uphill. Both ways!! :)
>
>
Yeah, yeah, yeah. . . was this after you walked 50
miles to gym in the
> snow... ;-)
I
could tell you all in lavish detail about cleaning the gym after
Hurricane
Hugo, but I'll spare you... let's just say that a FX mat soaked
through is not a pleasant-smelling thing...
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:32:33
-0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject:
Re: New (Anti-)Gymnastics Book
Thanks for the
info on the book. I think I'm going
to get it, or at
least look at it. (Eventually) I'm going to write a paper
for my sports
law class on child labor law and
sports. Maybe child abuse laws,
too.
Maybe I can come up with something worthwhile to counter all the
stupid
"poor little exploited girls"
c***. If they want to expend so
much
energy on exploited girls, maybe they should
concentrate on 13-year-old
prostitutes.
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:07:42
PDT
From: ***@MCM.COM
Subject:
Re: Mtn Pacific stuff
> When did they
start this? Last time I was at
Stanford during the season
> was '92, and they
were still doing the Pac-10 "Invitational" (as opposed
> to Championships b/c of the lack of teams) and I had never
heard of the
> MPSF until now.
The first year they dropped the
pac10 meet was '93. The first MPSF
meet
was held at UCLA. I believe Stanford won this meet. If they didn't,
they
should have with the likes of Mark Booth, Jair Lynch,
Bender, Josh
Stein, and other very capable competitors.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:25:44
PDT
From: ***@MCM.COM
Subject:
Re: Mtn Pacific stuff
This is not true at
all! Only six competitors can be
put up on each event.
If there are any more than six, then they are
exhibition and do not count
in the team score at
all. Also, this year they made a
change in that only
four of the six scores count
towards the team score. The idea of
this setup
is to encourage teams to try harder
routines. Two gymnasts could fall
off,
and neither score would effect the team
score.
--- Begin Included Message ---
Mayland
pretty much has it right.
While they use as many as they want over the rest
of the year,
they seldome
use more than 6 guys on each event.
-texx
--- End Included Message ---
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:20:14
PDT
From: ***@MCM.COM
Subject:
Re: Weird Annoucements/Calls:
I am sure none
of you saw this telecast, but it was a doozy. Cal vs. UCLA
in
'92, I believe a few other schools were there as well. Gordon Maddox
was
the color comentator I am pretty sure.
Cal
only had 5 real competitors on pommels, so they put a guy up last
kind of as an exhibition. He goes right after Jason Bertram, who
won
pommels in '94 at NCAAs. Gordon,"well
he should be really good
following jason...."
he proceeds to fall on every circle. Gordie,"
this is
a baptism under fire!"
On vault:"his high score for the year is 9.2 on this
event..."he does the
vault, " ... and we
can see why." The vaulter barely missed his face on
a
layout tsuk.
on
p-bars: "he's got good stuff, but like...so what?"
Sidenote on this meet:
Gordie was totally biased as an announcer,
bad
mouthing Cal, and talking up UCLA. He was real quiet when the team
event winners came up, and Cal had won 4 of the 6
events.
Another gordie favorite: at the '84 olympics, i believe, he
was
demonstrating how the dowel grips work on high
bar. He had the
grips on completely wrong with the dowel placed under the
bar instead
of over it. What a fool.
Josh
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:34:14
-0600
From: ***@TTACS.TTU.EDU
Subject:
TV Overkill
<<i
don't know about anyone else but i lost count how
many times i
saw
<<kim's fall
off beam in '92 and then tatiana's fall off
beam...
<<
<<i
am looking for opinions here- what do y'all think about the way the
<<'soviets' used to sub in people if the 'good' gymnast did
not make
<<finals-like in '90 Goodwill Games
when svetlana was 'subbed' for
<<chusovitina who was apparently
'hurt' or in '92 when roza galieva
was
<<pulled so tatiana
could compete in the all-around??? adrienne-no
pretty
<<signature
I agree about
the falls. After about 2 min. of
coverage I could have fallen
EXACTL as kim or tatiana did. It is a ridiculous waste of
airtime. I think
the media feels they are the important ones, so they are the
ones that we want
to see, regardless of how
repetitive.
My opinion about the way the soviets used to sub people in
when the good ones
make mistakes just goes to show
how rothless the soviets were to win. Of
course I
would have done the same thing when my job and social status
determined what kind of athletes I produced. Of course, I don't know exactly
how the coaches were rewarded, but I do know athletes got
bigger apartments,
and a car for winning gold
medals. Talk about pressure.
I
think this also shows how easily it is to find loop holes in rules, and
how
maybe competition really isn't fair.
Misti
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:53:14
-0500
From: ***@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG
Subject:
Re: Floor Mats
>I just had to get in on this! Not only did we do
vault on the board with
>NO springs (called a beat board), we also vaulted
WITH the pommels, and
>then landed on the
horse-hair mats. No wonder vaulting
was one of my
>strong events as time went
on. On FX we had NO mats sometimes
and then
>when we did something "really
hard" we would stratigicly place horse-hair
>mats around on the wooden floor so we could land on them(or
not-whichever
>the case would be). Those were the days! Now when my students say they
>don't like the springs in the floor I have little
sympathy.
Ah yes: We used to just put 4 traffic cones out, one in each
corner. That's
when floor was really floor! ;)
And you judged the
visiting gyms by which ones had a (relatively)"hard" wood
floor and which had a (relatively) "softer" wood
floor. (Don't forget the
band-aid
on your neck)
Ken
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:39:43
CDT
From: ***@ADMIN.STEDWARDS.EDU
Subject:
Opinion poll
OK. Here's
one for all of you that should get your minds going...
All the talk
recently about Shannon's new floor routine inspired a thought
:
Whose floor routine do you think was the BEST of all
time? I know, I know, it's
a tough call but it should generate a lot of
discussion! Here are my picks :
1.
Silivas - 1988 Olympics (remember the way she
"sold it" in the AA final?)
2. Omelianchick (sp?) - 1985 Worlds
3. Omelianchick -
1987 Worlds
4. Silivas - 1989 Worlds
5. Boginskaia -
1992 Olympics
6. Voinea - the "breakdance" routine
7. Dobre - 1987
Worlds - talk about STUCK landings!
Honorable Mention - Pasca - 1990 (I think) - the routine with the Genesis cut
in
the middle.
What do you guys
think? Agree/Disagree? Comments welcome :)
Cole
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:44:09
-0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject:
substituting gymnasts (was tv overkill)
>i am looking for opinions here-
what do y'all think about the way the
>'soviets'
used to sub in people if the 'good' gymnast did not make
>finals-like in '90 Goodwill Games when svetlana
was 'subbed' for
>chusovitina
who was apparently 'hurt' or in '92 when roza galieva was
>pulled so tatiana could compete in the all-around???
Well
this was not a 'Soviet' trick.
Other teams do it just as
much, even at
Goodwill '90 AA there were like two other teams that did it.
It is only the
USSR that got criticized for doing it because they usually
win ('85, '90, '92 etc). As far as the 'good' gymnast not making
finals
as you say, it is ridiculous that teams
should be punished for depth.
The
all-around and event final competitions
are individual competitions, not
team
competitions. A gymnast should not
be punished for being on a good
team. I would much rather see the top 8 in an
event final than #1, #2,
#4, #6, #9, #10, #13, and #14. Especially in competitions where
teammates
are seperated
by .037, it is hard to say who is better than another. If
they
rank in the top 40 or whatever, they should qualify to all-around
competition.
By
the way it was Lyssenka and not Chusovitina
who was pulled for
Boginskaya in Seattle.
Amanda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:39:19
-0400
From: ***@SIDWELL.EDU
Subject:
TV (or rather VCR) alert
Women's Pac-10 championships from Tempe,
Arizona will be on ESPN at 12:30
Thursday, according to my local paper's TV
guide. I think they mean
Friday
morning. Wonder if we'll get Maura
and John again? ;)
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:33:11
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
New Ideas
Hi
Over the
past year I have heard several ideas about possible rule changes
for MEN. What do
you think:
1. Make a D move only 1/2 tenth bonus Note : taking a step would still be a
tenth
off.
2. Making some D's
1/2 tenth bonus ( like 1 1/2 back punch front ) and
other D's a full tenth ( like double lay and full-in)
3. Connection bonus of 1/2 tenth and 1
tenth and only 2 tenths allowed for
connection
bonus total.
4. Canning
the third pass value raise or only giving a value raise if the
third move is of C value or better.
5. No value raise for swing to strength on
rings.
All of
these ideas have one basic principle in mind which is to distingui
sh good athletes or routines from
great ones. Although high scores and
attendence
seems to be what is needed. ( To keep up with the
women) I would
also like to add a few of my own ideas:
1. In finals 2 different vaults must be
performed (It was this way in 91 and
92 at the EIGL championship - I only
know this because I made finals.
2. Kill the Giant hop, Vault catch, Veronen, as
valid release moves. At
least at the college level
. I even question the Thomas (giant full twist
catch)
when caught one hand at a time.
Thank the lord for the 4 man rule it has made for much closer meets, and for
upsets.
Just for the record there is a 12 man rule for every dual meet and a person
must be in the competitive line up some where to compete in
an event if
someone should get hurt. With the 4 man rule (
only the top 4 scores count
on each event)
I don't thing any coach should have a problem with a 9 man
rule. This year almost every team Springfield College
competed against used
only 5 men on events one
time or another.
Keep your mind fresh in the Chalk
Peace :o) Carl
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:54:34
-0400
From: ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject:
ESPN announcers
everyone also needs to
remember that although ESPN is a large netowrk
it
doesn't have anywhere near the money needed to
have someone like MAry Lou
Retton
(i dont like ehr style anyway) commentate...adrienne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:40:27
-0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject:
substituting gymnasts (was tv overkill)
>i am looking for opinions here-
what do y'all think about the way the
>'soviets'
used to sub in people if the 'good' gymnast did not make
>finals-like in '90 Goodwill Games when svetlana
was 'subbed' for
>chusovitina
who was apparently 'hurt' or in '92 when roza galieva was
>pulled so tatiana could compete in the all-around???
Well
this was not a 'Soviet' trick.
Other teams do it just as
much, even at
Goodwill '90 AA there were like two other teams that did it.
It is only the
USSR that got criticized for doing it because they usually
win it anyway ('85, '90, '92 etc). As far as the 'good' gymnast not
making finals as you say, it is ridiculous that teams should
be punished
for depth. The all-around and event final competitions
are individual
competitions, not team
competitions. A gymnast should not
be punished for
being on a good team. I would much rather see the top 8 in an
event final
than #1, #2, #4, #6, #9, #10, #13, and
#14. Especially in
competitions
where teammates are seperated by .037, it is hard to say who is better
than another. If
they rank in the top 40 or whatever, they should qualify
to
all-around competition.
By
the way it was Lyssenka and not Chusovitina
who was pulled for
Boginskaya in Seattle.
Amanda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:52:20
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Re: Mtn Pacific stuff
The following is a
statement made by Josh:
[Also, this year they made a change in that
only
four of the six scores count towards the team
score. The idea of this setup
is to encourage teams to try harder routines. Two gymnasts could fall off,
and neither score would effect the team score.]
---------
He
is correct in that only 4 scores count on each event ,
but the reason use
was to make teams closer in
score and even allow for upsets.
Over the years
Depth has become an issue expecially
for private schools and Division 2-3
schools.
Note: The 12 man rule is the number
of competitors allowed
to
compete for a team during a
competition. Only 6 men per event
are allowed
up, but you can have a total of 12
different men competiting in the meet.
The 9 man rule
says a team can only have 9 men competiting in the
meet.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:04:21
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Re: Stupid Announcer Tricks
>No offence taken, but I am from
"beautiful" Delft.
A few years ago there was a gymnastics display
in Delft, this
with a few "minor"
gymnast.
Tatiana Toughikova, Tatiana Druchinina and Grigori Mitsutin
Nothing against the town of Delft (in
fact I brought home plenty of Delftware
last
November as many on this list can attest ;-), but when there's only 25
minutes to cover the entire meet, a 90-second piece on Delft
can be extremely
frustrating.
Mara
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:04:28
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
subbing in for 'injured' teammates
>i am looking for opinions here- what do y'all think about
the way the
'soviets' used to sub in people if the
'good' gymnast did not make
finals-like in '90
Goodwill Games when svetlana was 'subbed' for
chusovitina who was apparently
'hurt' or in '92 when roza galieva
was
pulled so tatiana
could compete in the all-around???
I can't say I agree with this, in
particular because an athlete gained a
place in a
competition like Worlds or Olympics, only to be told it isn't
theirs anymore.
IMHO, the worst instance of this was Mostepanova
in 1985 [in
particular since it was just after
1984, when she was best in the world but
couldn't
compete in LA -- I don't care what Dima said, Olomouc
was no Olympic
gold medal].
Mara
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:51:29
+1000
From: ***@STUDENT.GU.EDU.AU
Subject:
Re: Peachtree Invitational (or was it Kodak?)
> 10. That side planche to (1 millisecond) one armed handstand that
the
> Australian (Zeena?) did was really
cool. But overall, I wasn't
terribly
> impressed with the Australians,
except for Rebecca Slobig.
Can anyone tell
me who comprised the Australian team?
Thanks
Michelle
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:54:29
-0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject:
Re: tv overkill
>My
opinion about the way the soviets used to sub people in when the good
>ones make mistakes just goes to show how rothless
the soviets were to
>win. Of course I would have done the same
thing when my job and social
>status determined
what kind of athletes I produced.
Of course, I don't
>know exactly how the
coaches were rewarded, but I do know athletes got
>bigger
apartments, and a car for winning gold medals. Talk about pressure.
Give me a
break.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:03:39
+1000
From: ***@STUDENT.GU.EDU.AU
Subject:
Re: tv overkill
>
i don't know about anyone
else but i lost count how many times i saw
>
kim's fall off beam in '92
and then tatiana's fall off beam...
Just be
thankful you got to see Gutsu's BB fall - it wasn't
even
mentioned in Australias
Olympic coverage! It wasn't until I
was going
through newspaper results the next day,
that I saw she'd recieved such a
low score and was behind Galieva.......it
was then weeks before I found
out she'd fallen off
her mount!
Speaking of which you guys complaining about bad coverage
is really
cracking me up! Not only do we only get about an hour's
gym coverage a
year, but when we do it's
pathetic! Lets see, according to
the
commentator for 91 Worlds Gutsu
was 20!
> i am
looking for opinions here- what do y'all think about the way the
> 'soviets' used to sub in people if the 'good' gymnast did not
make
> finals-like in '90 Goodwill Games when svetlana was 'subbed' for
> chusovitina who was apparently 'hurt' or in '92 when roza galieva was
> pulled so tatiana could compete in
the all-around???
I think the contraversy
here should be about the 2 per nation rule, after
all
the Soviets couldn't help being brilliant!
Michelle
------------------------------
End
of GYMN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1995 to 5 Apr 1995
***********************************************