GYMN-L Digest - 4 May 1995 to 5 May 1995

There are 19 messages totalling 656 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: ]$fy]: host not found) (fwd)
2. One arm moves and their risk factor (2)
3. Negative Coaching (4)
4. New Topic. (2)
5. stanford girls coach fired
6. Dropping the University of Pittsburgh's Men's GYmnastics team
7. Naming moves after people (2)
8. U. of Pitt's men's gymn. team
9. introduction
10. back tuck on beam
11. Banning moves (was One arm on unevens).
12. American Cup Results
13. Rythmic Nationals

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 01:29:19 -0400
From: ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: ]$fy]: host not found) (fwd)

sorry about all tis crud int he front!...imessed up the address

Forwarded
>
> well-my advice-do not, i repeat, DO NOT accuse the coach or go in to talk
> with im with a negativer attitude-your best result will be from going in
> to simply discuss rather than accusing-i honestly think that the coach
> would not have let your daughter try giants on the regular bars if he felt
> she wasnt ready...all coaches have bad days, and they generally want what
> is best for his kids-while he may have been in the wrong, its always
> better to go in with a positive attitude...adrienne
>

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 00:10:03 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: One arm moves and their risk factor

> As for me, I do support the FIG devaluing moves that are too dangerous, but
> I don't think one-armed UB work falls into that category.

The question is, how do you determine what is too dangerous? By how
many gymnasts have been injured and how seriously? If not that way,
then how? Jennifer pointed out that serious injuries can occur on
skills that no one is suggesting be banned (at least on the elite level
-- Yurchenkos, which were mentioned, are banned in NCAA competition). I
can think of more serious injuries on unbanned skills than on banned ones
(although there may be a lot we don't hear about; I don't know).

:)
Adriana

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 02:32:21 -0400
From: ***@EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU
Subject: Re: Negative Coaching

I do not think you are overreacting at all. If your daughter did not feel
comfortable then he shouldn't have pushed her. It seems to me that he
wants what is better for him rather than being concerned with her needs.
Part of executing a move well is having the confidence in yourself to
perform it. I would also be wary of coaches who threaten because
truthfully, what else would he be doing with his time if not coaching
young gymnasts? While threats may work with some gymnasts, he obviously
doesn't know what works with your daughter and his job as a coach is to
figure out whay motivates her.

That is my 2 cents. Good luck!
Melissa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:44:54 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: One arm moves and their risk factor

I said:

>> As for me, I do support the FIG devaluing moves that are too dangerous, but
>> I don't think one-armed UB work falls into that category.

To which Adriana responded:

>The question is, how do you determine what is too dangerous?

That's a good question, and I don't have a complete answer for it, but I do
have a partial answer. Obviously, any gymnast can miss almost any trick,
no matter how many times s/he's done the trick perfectly in the past. Most
mistakes will be small. So how about looking at what is likely to happen
to the gymnast who makes a small mistake on the skill?

Since I think it's the most obvious example, I'll talk about two tumbling
skills: a full-in and a 1 3/4 Arabian. The full-in is certainly harder,
but I also think it's a lot safer. For both skills, the most common, most
likely error is that the gymnast will either over-rotate or under-rotate.
So what happens if you over- or under- rotate these skills.

With the full-in, not much happens (other than a nasty deduction).
Over-rotate slightly and you have to take a step back. Over-rotate more
seriously and you stumble backwards, perhaps even falling to your butt. No
big deal. With the 1 3/4 Arabian, over-rotating means slamming to your
back. _Very_ unpleasant, but probably not all that dangerous, although you
could do some damage if you land particularly badly. I think that's fairly
unlikely, although I'm not sure. (Anyone out there know how likely that
is?)

The problem is with under-rotating. Again, on the full-in a minor
under-rotation is no big deal. You'll probably have to put your hands
down, and you may end up on your knees. Of course, you could hit your
head, but you'd have to be terribly low for that to happen, and even if it
did you'd be moving in the right direction and you probably wouldn't get
hurt too badly. The biggest danger comes from having such a lousy punch
(or laying it back so early) that you completely miss the trick.
Unfortunately, that can happen on _any_ trick, so I don't see why we should
single this one out.

On the 1 3/4 Arabian, major under-rotation is no big deal. You see the
floor coming, realize you can't roll out, and don't try. The problem is
with mild to moderate under-rotation. Landing on your face, or on the back
of your head, can easily break your neck. It's hard to imagine
under-rotating moderately on this trick and not getting injured. That's
why I think it's reasonable to discourage it.

As for one-arm giants and one-arm Geingers, they strike me as easy to miss.
On the other hand, missing them seems no worse than missing ordinary
giants and ordinary Geingers. That's why I don't think they should be
devalued.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:26:24 -0400
From: ***@ISSCAD.COM
Subject: Re: Negative Coaching

>
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
>
> Last night after I picked my daughter (Level 6 - Rec Opt, age 12) up from the
> gym, she said that she was upset with one of her coaches. I wasn't too
concerned
> at first, since she has come home annoyed at some of her other coaches before
> for "normal" reasons ("She told me I need to do FIVE more ..."), but after she
> explained the reason I became a little concerned.
>
> It seems that she had been doing giants on the pit bar, and her coach wanted
> her to do them on the regular bars. Mandy told him that she didn't feel
> ready, but he told her that if she did, she would be ahead of the rest of her
> group. When she finally (hesitantly) went to the bar, he told her that she had
> five seconds to get started, and looked at his watch. When she didn't start
> in time he told her to get off of the bars.
>
> Now comes the part that really bothers me. After she got off of the bars, he
> got angry with her for "not trying" and told her "If you're not going to try,
> quit wasting my time and the gym's time and just go home and play with your
> dolls."
>
> : Rest of message deleted

There are several things wrong here Ken that should have you concerned.
Pushing a gymnast (or any other athlete) to perform a skill that they do
not feel ready for is just not acceptable. There is a BIG difference
between encouragement and pushing. Based on other parts of your text I
would tend to believe that your daughter was somewhat nervous about
annoying this particular coach. As a parent and a coach I have seen more
then my share of "pushy coaches". They can and do occur in every sport.
Gymnastics is no exception. Gymnasts do need alot of encouragement to
build their confidence. What they don't need is to be fearful of irritating
the person who is supposedly helping them.

Next giving her "5 seconds to get started" is extremely stressful. Any
athlete has to mentally prepare themselves before they attempt a new skill.
We often tell our gymnasts to picture themselves doing a skill before its
actually been done. This takes time, especially during the beginning phases
of learning. Not allowing enough time to become mentally prepared to do a
skill can lead to injuries.

The other item that I find disturbing is this coach's willingness to
verbally insult his students, especially since as you have pointed out
they are Rec. Opt. They are training and competing because its what they
want to do and because it is FUN. There is no surer way to turn off an athlete
from a sport (or anything else) then to be told that they are not putting
forth the effort and they are wasting their time.

Now I say this admittedly after only hearing one side of the story. The
coach will probably have a much different perspective of his actions. I
also know that at times I have said things similar to what you have described.
If only what I have said was reported and not the context to which it was
applied, then I would probably appear no different then this coach. I would
highly recommend that you discuss the situation with a neutral third party
(i.e. the gym owner, head coach etc.) before confronting the coach about his
actions.
Just my .02 worth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:31:55 -0400
From: ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject: New Topic.

A new topic I was think about while watching my tape of the 1994 Goodwill
games happened while they were talking about the "Miller". My question is:

What gymnast (male or female) has the most skills associated with their name?


I know that Yurchenko has two (vault and ff on beam sideways)

Kelly Garrison has three on beam.

and Tsukahara has two : vault and half-in-half-out.


Does Olga Korbut have the most: Bar regrasp, ff swing down on beam, back tuck
on beamm, and full-on-full-off (not certain if this is hers?) on vault?


This is an interesting topic. Anyone know the winner?


Oh yes: Kurt Thomas has two moves, or is it three if you count the flair, full
twisting arabian 1 and 3/4 and the full twist over the bar on h-bar?


Very Interested, Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 08:49:52 PDT
From: ***@ROYALDIGITAL.COM
Subject: Re: stanford girls coach fired

> > Texx posted:
> > >
> > > I dont know if anyone has posted this yet, but Stanford Univ this week
fired
> > > their girls gymn coach, their mens wrestling coach and i forgot who the
3rd
> > one
> > > was they canned.
> > >
> > > -texx
> > >
> >
> > I just called the Stanford Sports Information Department, and they
> > confirmed that the women's (they are women, texx) gymnastics coach
>
> My nomenclature is in accordance with my objections to the way the sport
> is handled.
> Refer to previous fights aboutpermissible minimun ages for major competitions.
>
> Nice to see you delurking Pat !
> Havent seen you since that one meet !
>
> -texx
>
But you have to admit that in the NCAA, it is Women's Gymnastics.
Diane

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 09:52:58 -0700
From: ***@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: Negative Coaching

I don't know. (So why am I posting?) On one hand you don't want a coach
to try to push students more than they are ready to be pushed. On the
other hand sometimes a push is good to get you through a mental block.
It's easy to rely on something as a crutch, even when you don't need it.
I'm not saying your daughter's doing this, but it's something to think
about. It might be good to hear his side of the story. I wouldn't want
to have a coach that made me do things that I really wasn't ready for.
But a good coach probably knows when you're ready to take the next step.
Even if you don't think you are.

I remember in grade school our coaches used to yell at us from time to time
and tell us to get packing if we didn't want to be there. Those weren't the
exact words they would use... Some of the guys hated it. Some were really
motiviated by it and even kind of liked being yelled at like that. What I
guess I'm saying is that it's a pretty common coaching tool. You'll
probably want to talk to the coach and see why he feels justified using it
on your daughter and the team in the situations you described.

Just another opinion to file in the circular bit bucket,

-George

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:49:34 -0500
From: ***@NEXT.DUQ.EDU
Subject: Dropping the University of Pittsburgh's Men's GYmnastics team

Dear Individuals;
I , Frank D'Amico, head gymnastic's coach at the University of Pittsburgh, am
asking
your help in responding to the administration that this week announced that both
men's
gymnastics and men's tennis will be dropped effective immediately. The
announcement
also stated the addition of women's soccer, which will not take place till the
Fall of 96.
This news was a total shock to me as I had no idea that such a decision had
been
made. Between the two teams we are talking about destroying the chances of
collegiate
competition for 21 individuals. I am also annoyed at the timeliness of the
announcement.
Although I was told that the decision had been made weeks before I was not
informed of
the decision until recently. The formal announcement was made after the
semester was
over and the dorms were closed, all students had left. I feel the decision was
intentionally
announced at this time because of the difficulty there would be to gather the
team and
protest. My team next year would have had six out of eleven seniors and it
hurts me to
think that their best year of training was eliminated. Since women's soccer is
not to be
added till the following year they could certainly have been at least a year for
all the
athletes to prepare.

Please voice your concern to the following individuals. Also please do so in a
positive manner by relating the positive experiences that gymnastics brings. I
realize the
decision to drop my program was not an act against me but one done out of what
the
administration feels was a necessity. I understand the impact that TITLE IX
is having on
the sports community but the dropping of men's sports does not fit in with the
mission of
colleges throughout the country.

Chairman- Board of Trustees
Gene Barone Tele: 412-624-6623
159 Cathedral of Learning Fax: 412-624-9147
4200 Fifth Avenue
Pitt. Pa. 15260


Chancellor's Office
J. Dennis O'Connor Tele: 412-624-4200
107 Cathedral of Learning
4200 Fifth Avenue
Pitt, Pa. 15260

Athletic Director
L. Oval Jaynes Tele: 412-648-8230
416 ATH Fax: 412-648-8230
3719 Terrace St. Sport's Information Fax 412-648-8248
Pitt. Pa. 15213

Thank you for your support.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:27:00 PDT
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Naming moves after people

Oksana Omelianchik should have about 15 moves named after her.
That is, if there were any justice.


Brett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 15:38:53 +0500
From: ***@HEDLEY.EAST.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: Negative Coaching

You know, I have listened to alot of conversation on this, and as a gymnastics
Mom I have a VERY biased view of what is and is not apropriate. The thing that
bothers me is not that this coach pressured the level 6 girl into trying
something new, but that he threatened and intimidated her rather than
incouraged her. The problem for me as a clearly over-protective parent,
is that I want this to remain fun for my daughter. If my daughter is having
a tough day she is NOT wasting the gym's/coach's time (I pay alot for that
time), and should not be patronized with a "go home to your dolls" comment.
That does not mean I expect her to be coddled either, but I expect her to
be treated with the same respect the coach expects to be treated with. Will
this make Olympians? Probably not, but it does not prohibit Olympians either
(keep your eyes out for Tim Elsner from my daughters' gym, if not Atlanta
then 2000).

sheri

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 15:53:04 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: New Topic.

> What gymnast (male or female) has the most skills associated with their name?

Not long ago this question came up in IG, I think, and I think Kelly
Garrison came out with the most -- it was 4 or 5 (BB: ro-full mount; no
handed chest roll; sideways Valdez; FX: 1-1/2 twisting cat leap; I can't
remember if there was another).

> Does Olga Korbut have the most: Bar regrasp, ff swing down on beam, back tuck
> on beamm, and full-on-full-off (not certain if this is hers?) on vault?

The back tuck on beam is not Olga's. It's not attributed to her (or
anyone else, for that matter; it's one of those skills from before the
naming of skills became systematized the way it is now) in the Code, and
an American gymnast (Nancy Thies?) did it before Olga (and from that
story that was in IG a few years ago, it seems she is Not Amused that
everyone thinks Olga did it first). Incidentally, the Korbut on UB
isn't in the Code anymore.

:)
Adriana

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:27:03 -0400
From: ***@WINNIE.FIT.EDU
Subject: U. of Pitt's men's gymn. team

Can we do a petition like we did before?? You can put my name on
line #1!!

Rachele, do you have any templates you could modify for this?

Laura :)

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 17:22:13 -0400
From: ***@TSO.CIN.IX.NET
Subject: Re: introduction

Just curious here, but a few days ago (I'm behind on my mail) a new
member intoduced herself on the board as Amy from Cincy. Your
E-mail name listed "Gausmann". Just for fun & Giggles, you wouldn't
happent to be Amy Gausmann from Sycamore High School would you?
If so, then I am a blast from your aviator past,
TTYL,
Liz

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 17:38:28 CST
From: ***@CHSRA.WISC.EDU
Subject: back tuck on beam

> The back tuck on beam is not Olga's. It's not attributed to her (or
> anyone else, for that matter; it's one of those skills from before the
> naming of skills became systematized the way it is now) in the Code, and
> an American gymnast (Nancy Thies?) did it before Olga (and from that
> story that was in IG a few years ago, it seems she is Not Amused that
> everyone thinks Olga did it first).

Yeah, Nancy Thies -- formerly of Champaign/Urbana, Illinois and the
University of Illinois -- did it before Korbut in the same
Olympics... by virtue of being up first on beam.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 19:40:41 -0400
From: ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject: Banning moves (was One arm on unevens).

I have to agree that all skills can be dangerous at any time (Take it from some
one who landed a leap with his toes still pointed and hyperextending
all of his tendons on his left foot and being injured for two weeks!).

I still feel that there should be limits and the Code should enforce
them for safety sake. One thing I hate about Unevens is that since the bars
are so far apart, the event has simply turned into an event where
the gymnast are doing men's h-bar moves and UNEVEN bar moves, which are
limited to apparatus because of its design, are rare and new moves are
rarely introduced. When was the last time a new transition of going from
low to high was introduced? I can't rememeber. But it seems that women are
using the Men's moves more often and the bars are not meant to do some of them.
People have already commented that the bars are thicker, and hence more
likely to cause ripping off. Though women can do some of these skills, I
really wonder how many chinese gymnast have been injured learning these
skills that we do not know about? We only see the success stories and not
the failures. Case in point: The Gaylord is being performed now. But if
you look at these gymnast who are doint it, you can see that they catch the
bar VERY Close to it. If it was allowed, some (Mo Hulan, sp?, for example)
could do a headspring off the highbar. I wonder howmany gymnast have
injured themselves with this skill. Unlike the MEN'S H-Bar, the low bar is
a bigg obsticale which causes these gymnast to have to catch REALLY close
to the top bar. I think that the move should be banned, since it is likely
that someone will start hitting the h-bar with there head.

You can argue that even if one gymnast gets hurt, it is not right to ban
a move (and I do not think that leaps should be banned even though I
hurt myself with one.) Yet I feel that the moves on the UNEVENS, because
of the appartatus itself, should be controlled.

Other skills, though being successfully performed by some, are now
illegal. Case in point is the Thomas Salto. Kurt used it in Strasbourg
and won the world title. Yet less than a year later, Muckina crippled
herself with the same move. Now Elena is a world class gymnast who I would
say has the ability to control herself in the air, has spatial
awareness, and may have been "pushed" to do the move before she was ready.
But if a world champion can be pushed to do something and injure
herself, can't other "unknowns" be pushed and hurt themselves? I think
that the FIG is correct for banning "roll-out" tumbling. I only wish that
they would start to control UNEVENS. I think that the continued application
of mens H-bar skills has made the ebent into a "biggest release" events, which
devalues the current goals of gymnastics: To encourage artistry and
performance, not just awesome difficulty.

BTW: I have also disliked the Yurchenko vaults. I feel that they have
robbed Vault of any newness, as all new vaults appear with this
technique. The only exception is the front-handspring front full, which I
have not seen until Jenny Hansen did it in the NCAA's, which does ban the
Yurchenko. I feel the vault, though not being as much of risky move
as the thomas salto in terms of possible injury, illustrates what happens
when one approach to an apparatus is favored over another. Case in point:
The Hristova- arguably the most popular vault at international competetion
now.

So, in the interest of decreasing women's MEN's h-bar routines being performed
on the UNEVENS, I support some control by the FIG. But safety is the bigger
issue, and I hope to see some changes made.

Okay- Let me have it. Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 20:36:34 -0400
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: Naming moves after people

>
> Oksana Omelianchik should have about 15 moves named after her.
> That is, if there were any justice.
>
>
> Brett
>
I was thinking the same thing! Isn't she one of the few (if not the only)
gymnasts to have introduced a new move and/or trend on EVERY event (examples:
the Omelianchik vault, tuck front somi from high bar to low bar, Omelianchik on
beam, back-to-back tumbling on floor). I'm sure there are more (or should be!)
I also give her awards for toe point and a great smile! She was always a
pleasure to watch. :)

Beth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 19:57:45 -0500
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject: American Cup Results

Date sent: 5-MAY-1995 19:56:34
Ummm....the gymn server on the World Wide Web has a gymnastics
results server, but it won't give me the American Cup listing.
Can someone please post the results of the 1989 American Cup?
I know brandy Johnson won, but I would like the rest of the results if
possible...


Jennifer

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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 22:24:25 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Rythmic Nationals

A couple of days ago, someone posted that a Rythmic Gymnastics meet will be
held in Houston on May 26-28. Does anybody know where the event will take
place? I'd really like to attend, since Houston doesn't really get much
gymnastics events. Thanks!
Yours in gymnastics,
Natalie

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 4 May 1995 to 5 May 1995
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