gymn
Digest
Sat, 5 Nov 94 Volume 3 :
Issue 37
Today's
Topics:
Amy Chow Article
Fairness of team selection (4 msgs)
gif site for gymnastics pictures
Jnr.
GBR v ROM preview
Need Trivia Questions-Vault (M&W)
new gym address for Tanya Maiers
New Gym In Houston (3 msgs)
roundoff
roundoff (fwd)
Seinfeld (3 msgs)
Shannon and Worlds... (2 msgs)
This
is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 2 Nov 94 17:02:53 PST
From: ***@sol.metaware.com
Subject: Amy
Chow Article
There was an article about Amy Chow in the San Jose
Mercury News today. I
was so excited to actually find a gymnastics article, I
figured I should
share it with all of you. I'll paraphrase as best I can (sorry if
it's a bit
disjointed) :
NOTE:
This
is about half. I'll do the other
half tomorrow. I had a lease signed
to
move into a new house on Saturday, and the
landlord called saying something
happened! So now I need to go look at a new
place. Gr!
San Jose
Mercury News, Wednesday, Nov. 2, 1994
----------------------------------------------
Amy
turned 16 in May and says she "doesn't have time" to learn how to
drive.
Since August, she has
placed fifth at the national gymnastics championships,
fourth
in qualifying at the national team trials, and Nov. 15-20 she'll
compete at the world championships in Dortmund,
Germany.
Bela Karolyi
says 'She is one of the most promising girls leading up the
1996 Olympic Games. I believe
in a beautiful upcoming gymnastics career for
her
and I definately see her as one of the successful
Olympic team members."
Amy trains 32-33 hours a week at San
Jose's West Valley Gymnastics. Most
mornings her father drives her from home in San
Jose to Castilleja School in
Palo
Alto, where she is a 4.0 student.
Mom picks her up in the afternoon
to go to
the gym.
The 4ft. 10in., 78 pound gymnast studies pre-calculus, psychology, American
literature and chemistry. She says "I don't think it's hectic....If I
have a day without
anything to do, it gets kinda boring." In addition, Amy
also
plays the piano. She has won annual
honors recitals (Command Performance)
at the state
mucis teachers' association. She also was a diver until last
summer.
Amy started gymnastics at 3 when her mom
was told Amy was too young for ballet.
Her coach, Mark Young, knew that
she was different by the time she was 5.
There has been some pressure to move her to Karolyi's
gym. At a meet about 5
years ago, Bela came up to Amy and
said "You ought to come back to Houston to
my
gym." Amy, however, wanted to stay with her coach, Mark.
This was
a big decision for Amy, being a long time fan of Mary Lou Retton.
Amy says "It was her spirit.....some gymnasts look so concerned. They look
very
nervous. She looked calm and ready
to go. She looked like she
was having fun."
.......
--Robin
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 1 Nov 94 12:38:46 GMT
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Fairness of team
selection
I don't know about all these team selection business. For
most other
Sports (especially team sports) there is simply a manager/coach
who
picks his/her team for "matches". I
know gymnastics "matches" don't
come
round very often and selection processes are very important but
I think the
present approach of a selection committee is quite adequate.
The committee
"should" pick whoever is best for the team (not saying
they would) and people like Miller not only will act as a
leader
for the younger ones to look upon but her
"experience" will also
count a lot in
major competitions. I guess the shear presence of her
will
have lifted the team especially if some of the other team members
look up on her as their "model" and thus will give
more effort if they
know they're in the same team
as their "model". No matter how the team
was
chosen, whether by trials or rankings or selection committees, it
is bound to be under criticism especially if the competition
doesn't
go well...
--
Sherwin
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 01 Nov 94 13:33:58 GMT
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Fairness
of team selection
>No matter how the team
>was chosen, whether by trials or rankings or selection
committees, it
>is bound to be under criticism
especially if the competition doesn't
>go
well...
Selection processes will always come under scrutiny, but I beleive if the
system is fair
to everybody there is less cause for criticism.
Basically yes you are
damned if you do and damned if you dont, but
people
wont take you seriously at all if they see
people moving the goalposts
all the time.
Clive
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 1 Nov 94 10:44:52 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Fairness of team
selection
Clive writes:
>But in anycase
picking a team to represent your country from just the rankings
>isnt a good idea, the rankings
themselves are a good idea dont get me
>wrong, but I mean ok look at it this way say if a gymnast
failed to win a
>major competition because
h/she momentarily had a lapse of concentration such
>that
they got a bad score and then finished last in that event, but
>this wasnt a true representation
of their ability if they were borderline on
>the
rankings a poor performance could mean the difference between being
>included in the team or not. Now that adds pressure, and thats not so good.
>If
you want to pick the best team, then the trial system is the fairest
>way to go but you have to stick to that trial system
otherwise its
>pointless doing it.
I
don't want to be contentious, because I agree that the trial
system
is fair, but I think it's fair to point out
that the trial system
can also put pressure on
someone who's been injured or is injured
(Strug
and Roethlisberger are recent examples) but has only this
chance to make it.
As for one bad meet messing up your chances:
If you're in at least 3
meets that count in the scoring, and
a median
score is used, your worst meet won't count. Trimmed means
(throw
out the highest and lowest scores and average the rest,
which
is essentially how diving is scored) are also a way of
correcting
against this problem. And the
argument goes both ways:
If your performance at trials (or Nationals and
trials) is all
that counts, then one bad
competition can ruin your chances of
making it on
the team.
But as I said before, there's nothing wrong with using
trials
(or any reasonably objective system), as
long as the results
are not tampered with by whim
later.
>>Kathy
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 02 Nov 94 11:08:08 GMT
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Fairness
of team selection
>I don't want to be contentious, because I agree that the trial
system
>is fair, but I think it's fair to point
out that the trial system
>can also put
pressure on someone who's been injured or is injured
>(Strug and Roethlisberger are recent examples) but has only
this
>chance to make it.
Fair point
in those cases the trials arent helpful to them but
its
unfortunate you cant please everybody all the
time. Selection process will
always be unfair to
somebody, the very nature of them precludes absolute
fairness
to everyone, but the trial system although it is a high pressure
meet, is nearer to the environment of the competition that
the selceted
gymnasts
would be facing, and I also believe that although the pressure
on that one competition isnt that
good, its alot better than having the
pressure to compete absolutely consistently throughout a
series of meets.
>As for one bad meet messing up your chances:
>If
you're in at least 3 meets that count in the scoring, and
>a median score is used, your worst meet won't count. Trimmed means
>(throw out the highest and lowest scores and average the
rest,
>which is essentially how diving is
scored) are also a way of
>correcting against
this problem.
Well if your going to be chucking out the worst and best
results thats not a ranking system
as such, thats more of an averaging
system and thus your entering the people who are most
consistent,
sounds ok doesnt
it, but its not as good as it sounds the averaging of
all
the results could actually produce a team of consistent scorers but
who dont actually score high
enough in any one event to win. The
nature of the
competitions that the team are to be entered into
are
such that you are down to basically just one competition you cant
afford, if you want to win that is, to have a team of
gymnasts that cant
muster anything like the
scores that are needed to win
>And the argument goes both
ways:
>If your performance at trials (or Nationals and trials) is
all
>that counts, then one bad competition can
ruin your chances of
>making it on the
team.
Yes although one part of the selection process must be to see if
the
gymnasts can handle that one major competition
pressure.
>But as I said before, there's nothing wrong with using
trials
>(or any reasonably objective system),
as long as the results
>are not tampered with
by whim later.
totally in agreement
there.
Clive
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 04 Nov 1994 15:40:47 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@asu.edu
Subject: gif
site for gymnastics pictures
Hi all,
This is just to inform you that many
pictures are now available
at ftp.sunet.se
(pub/pictures/sports/gymnastics).
For awhile only one
was there... Now there are over fifty. Please go see them!!!
Amanda
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 4 Nov 94 23:45:26 GMT
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Jnr. GBR v ROM
preview
A penpal phoned me today telling me
that there is a GBR v ROM
Juniors match tomorrow (Saturday) at Portsmouth,
England. Amongst
the competitors advertised
include Alexandra Marinescu the Junior
European
Champion! I jumped at the chance to see her so I'll
be
popping down there tomorrow to watch the meet. Will write
something about it when I get back.
Sherwin
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 3 Nov 1994 03:16:53 -0500
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Need Trivia
Questions-Vault (M&W)
I'd love to get one more trivia set in
before I leave for vacation.
The
topic is Vault (Men & Women). Please send your questions (with
answers)
directly to me via private e-mail ASAP.
Thanks
Mara
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 04 Nov 1994 12:54:53
From: ***@by-line.win.net
Subject: new gym
address for Tanya Maiers
Hey Gymn,
I
traded some photo's with Tanya at the Nationals and
have
some more photo's for her and her new
coach! Dummy me!
lost her gym address!
Would some kind Gymn. person,
Please
help us and share the address with us!
Thanks alot!
FlashJim
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 3 Nov 1994 19:10:45 -0500
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: New Gym In
Houston
>From the AP (and me) ...
Rita Brown has opened
her new gym in Houston. I believe this a temporary site
she
talked about at Nat'ls and not the completed
mega-building - it will be
the largest training
gym in the world - which won't be livable until at least
January. This will
dwarf Karolyi's newest Houston facilty
(Cypress academy is
also in Houston) This article
quoted Rita as saying "I think
competition is
good for everyone" but when I
talked to her in August she said that she
"wasn't
in compeition with Bela"
and "hoped he didn't see it that way." She
said
choose Houston since it's become "a gymnastics center" and is hoping
to
host teams from all over the world in her new
gym. "It'll be a great place
for invites and traning camps." The article says that Bruce, Beathard, and
Bhardwaj - her
3 National team members - are now training in Houston but then
again the article says that Rita was the assistant coach in
Barcelona (Steve
was) so make your own choice on
what to believe.
-Susan
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 3 Nov 94 20:00:09 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: New Gym In
Houston
Susan writes about Brown's new gym:
>for
invites and traning camps." The article says
that Bruce, Beathard, and
>Bhardwaj
- her 3 National team members - are now training in Houston but then
Is
there some significance to the fact that she and her best gymnasts
share the same last initial? Maybe they should call themselves
the
Killer B(ee)s
:-).
Speaking of coaches, it was nice to read more evidence that Amy
Chow is
a level-headed person who wants to enjoy
her gymnastics. I'm sure
that her coach had something to do with that. I wonder about
Bela's
attempted solicitation. Has he
decided to return completely
to training senior
elites, and not just returning "old timers"?
>>Kathy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994
12:37:24 -0500
From: ***@orl.mmc.com
Subject: New Gym In Houston
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>>
The article says that Bruce, Beathard, and
>>
Bhardwaj - her 3 National team members - are now
training in Houston
Yes, the current facility is temporary. Located
about 10 minutes
fron
the "Real" gym, to open in january.
As
far as the 3 "B"'s, I have seen them around the Altamonte Gym
recently, so I'm not sure that they are training in
Houston.
BTW
Jenni Bethard
has given a verbal commitment to attend Georgia
next
year! It looks like the Bulldogs are going to be a tough
team
to beat for the next few years!
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 02 Nov 1994 02:53:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject: roundoff
>: Basic skill. How is it really done? I was always told that one should
>:
put one's hands down roughly in a line parallel to the
direction of
>: travel (in other words, do a
quarter twist)...
>: Watching a number of elite gymnasts in slo-mo, however, they seem to
>: invariably
do the entire half turn before their hands ever touch...
>: At any
rate, are those elites just demonstrating personal technique,
>: or is this the best way to do a roundoff? Inquiring minds want to
>: know...
> Once
again (like twisting and other skills), there is more than one
>*good* technique to doing a skill.
Especially for
different gymnasts with different body types, different
abilities,
etc.
> I believe this technique is to
>allow
you to stretch more into the roundoff, before your
hands hit (i.e.
>you stretch to your first
hand, but continue foward to your second hand)
>Stretching
forward implies/requires speed, which you can't have too much of
>when tumbling a roundoff. On the other hand, turning more before
the hand
>placement (one would think) would
allow a better push and therefore faster
>in
getting your upper body moving back into the next move (99% chance this
>is a flip-flop).
Not quite. The greater the turn, the straighter you can keep
your arms for
instance, allowing one to use the
compliancy ( up and down movement of the
sprung
floor) instead of the compliancy of your bent arms and muscles.
As
sprung floors have gotten more compliant (4" of spring now with
usually
1.5" of surface foam) gymnasts have altered their technique to
take
advantage of it, by tumbling with straighter
arms and legs. You can block a
sprung floor
instead of pushing off.
> So
believe your coach, because both ways are right, and I'm not
>convinced either has an advantage over the other.
Neither
is wrong, true. The straight arm - straight leg school of thought
does have the virtue of using the surface better and
preserving a bit more
of your forward speed (the
blocking action is directed down and back towards
the
begining of the tumbling pass,) but is not always practicle (you need a
bit of
room to run into it to make it work well,) or all individuals. I have
seen great male tumblers do it both ways, but the great
women tumblers tend
to lock everything up straight
( I said TEND, there are always exceptions!)
IMHO the women are far better
technically than the men, perhaps because they
have
to be. After all, these floors are designed to accomodate
much heavier
male gymnasts and have to be a bit
hard for the women in comparison.
>: p.s.
$1.25 to Dave Litwin's favorite charity (aka Yogurt
Park) if he
>: can make an ascii
sketch of a roundoff. (That should surely drive
>: him bonkers...)
> A
$1.25 won't get you much more than something looking like a
>cartwheel (you didn't say how good it had to be). If you want to
>'commission' ASCII artwork of the quality need to represent
a roundoff
>you'll
have to do better than that :)
You betcha.
Now in ANSI.....
bjcorr
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:48:35 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Subject:
roundoff (fwd)
>
Neither is wrong, true. The straight arm - straight leg school of thought
>
does have the virtue of using the surface better and
preserving a bit more
> of your forward speed (the
blocking action is directed down and back towards
> the
begining of the tumbling pass,) but is not always practicle (you need a
> bit
of room to run into it to make it work well,) or all individuals. I have
>
seen great male tumblers do it both ways, but the
great women tumblers tend
> to lock everything
up straight ( I said TEND, there are always exceptions!)
> IMHO the
women are far better technically than the men, perhaps because they
> have to be. After all, these floors are designed to accomodate much heavier
> male
gymnasts and have to be a bit hard for the women in comparison.
I'm
not sure the straight arm & leg technique requires
that much room.
The men use it
very effectively, and they aren't allowed to take more than
three steps in their tumbling runs. The Soviets practically just
hurdle (I'm not saying they're the only ones; I haven't
really noticed
others specifically).
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:57:12 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject:
Seinfeld
Anyone catch last night's "Seinfeld" in which Jerry went out
with a
"Romanian gymnast who was a silver medalist in the 1984
Olympics"? Well, the
actress looked nothing
like Szabo, and the show gave her the name
"Katya"
(which is Russian) instead of
"Kati," but it was still nice to have our sport
turn up on a top 10 show! Also, someone DID do some
research, because Kramer's
commentary when
watching a tape of 1984 was very good - he had gym terminology
down pat. And later in the show he hurt himself by trying to
do a reverse hecht
off his couch. Anyway, I thought it was all pretty amusing!
:)
Beth
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04
Nov 1994 15:21:32 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@asu.edu
Subject: Seinfeld
I
for one saw it and couldn't believe it...
It was mighty funny. Yeah,
Kramer new his tricks... For
those of you that didn't see it it went
something like this "Giant swing... good form... reverse hecht, kip,
giant
swing... full-in double back and
she sticks it!" was his
commentary. Though one glaring innaccuracy
was that "Katya won a silver
at the 84
Olympics"... Maybe they were
hoping to imply individual,
because she would have also left LA with a gold
too...
But pretty good. Did you help them out David? ;-)
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 05 Nov 94 14:03 PST
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject:
Seinfeld
yeah, I laughed pretty hard. The idea of Szabo
doing a full-in off
bars
is pretty amusing...
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 02 Nov 1994 02:53:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject:
Shannon and Worlds...
>Ben writes ...
>>So, we need
Shannon, for example, to win.<<
>Well
let me just get this out of the way right now so everyone can blast me
>up front ... Shannon or no Shannon the yes has half a shot
in hell of
>winning
>a
gold medal. Romania is going to be gunning for this one and if they falter
>Russia
is right there. In fact if we were talking talent and difficulty
>alone
>Russia has the edge but Romania is better disiplined and less likely to miss
>(also more likely to play it safe). If compos were part of
the final Russia
>would have a better shot. My
early prediction (based on history not having
>seen
either Russia or Romo do these compos) is that Russia
will have a slim
>lead (provided they hit)
after the compo optional portion and Romania will
>win
in the "new-life" optional only section.
Whoa girl! Hold on
here, what is the more important issue here, whether or
not
we win a gym meet, or how we treat our athletes? Are you telling me that
cheating Kara out of a life long dream for a better chance
at a team medal
is justified? And I thought you
people thought us coaches cruel and
nearsighted in
regards to the kids! Yes, Romania and Russia are lurking
right
there, So? You have my admiration for your tactical analysis of the
situation, but aren't you going a bit over board? I think
it's far more
important that we treat our athletes
with fairness and respect than play
dream team
gymnastics with them in an attempt to beat Russia.
>The US will be
lucky to get a bronze and Shannon Miller ain't gonna' change
>that fact
one little bit. The total lack of depth within the gymnastics
>world will be the deciding factor.
Wait a minute, are you changing your mind here? Now you say we
DON'T need
Shannon?
>>A fellow in a movie once said
"never put passion before principal, even if
you
win, you lose."<<
>Nice idea but let's be realistic here
... winning *is* good. This is a
>competition
and a competition is, by it's very definition, about winning.
Winning
is good, yes. But not by any means possible, then the winning loses
it's meaning. And competition is about competing, about the
struggle, not
the outcome. Winning only gives
direction, a goal to strive for. By the tone
of
your remarks I can only hope you are not coaching any gymnasts yourself,
as a matter of fact, I am quite certain of it.
>
If the US win's a medal - and the
women probably deserve a bronze fair
>and
square - let it be on their merits and not on more abstract matters.
My
point exactly, let it rest on their merits, not the meddeling
of others.
We had a trials, let the results
stand.
>-Susan
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:40:42 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Subject:
Shannon and Worlds...
[Susan's analysis of who is likely to win at
Dortmund]
> Whoa girl!
Sounds rather like you're
addressing a horse here, now, doesn't it...
Moving along...
Hold
on here, what is the more important issue here, whether or
> not we win a gym meet, or how we treat our athletes? Are you
telling me that
> cheating Kara out of a life
long dream for a better chance at a team medal
> is
justified? And I thought you people thought us coaches cruel and
> nearsighted in regards to the kids! Yes, Romania and Russia
are lurking
> right there, So? You have my
admiration for your tactical analysis of the
> situation,
but aren't you going a bit over board? I think it's far more
> important that we treat our athletes with fairness and
respect than play
> dream team gymnastics with
them in an attempt to beat Russia.
>
> >The US will be lucky
to get a bronze and Shannon Miller ain't gonna' change
> >that
fact one little bit. The total lack of depth within the gymnastics
>
>world will be the deciding factor.
>
>
Wait a minute, are you changing your mind here? Now
you say we DON'T need
> Shannon?
I think you totally
misinterpreted Susan. She said, and
I agree, that
there's no way the US has a chance
at winning this one, Shannon or no
Shannon. Then she shifted from that subject into
who *is* likely to win
and how, and that had
nothing to do with the US selection process and how
it
should be run in order to maximize the US's chances of beating Russia
or anyone else, because she already said the US has no such
chance. So
she
wasn't at all changing her mind at the end; she was just restating
wat she said at the beginning --
the highest the US will finish is 3rd,
whether
Shannon is on the team or not (of course, and this is my
comment, not Susan's, without her they might not even finish
that high).
I don't think what
you quoted was at all intended to say that they should
mess
with the selection process in order to try to beat Russia and Romania.
> >>A fellow in a movie
once said "never put passion before principal, even if
> you win, you lose."<<
>
> >Nice
idea but let's be realistic here ... winning *is* good. This is a
> >competition and a competition is, by it's very definition,
about winning.
>
> Winning is good, yes. But not by any means
possible, then the winning loses
> it's
meaning. And competition is about competing, about the struggle, not
> the outcome. Winning only gives direction, a goal to strive
for.
I believe these two are not mutually exclusive. Competition is about
both.
> > If the US win's a medal - and the women probably deserve a
bronze fair
> >and square - let it be on
their merits and not on more abstract matters.
>
> My point
exactly, let it rest on their merits, not the meddeling
of others.
> We had a trials, let the results
stand.
Now, as to the results of Trials and Kara
Fry. I'm not sure I believe
Kara is getting cheated out of anything. The original process provided
that Shannon only had to show she was ready. She didn't have to compete
in Trials to start with. Does it really make that much of a
difference
that she didn't actually perform at
Trials if they know she's ready by
some other
means? The "results" in
her case are the same; shouldn't
they stand? Also, it's not like everyone didn't know
Shannon
was around and that she was getting
special exceptions. The same thing
happens when it is decided to place an athlete
who wasn't able to compete
at Trials because of
injury on the team. The other
athletes and coaches
know about petitions and
know they may get bumped. Also, who
says USAG
wasn't trying
to protect Shannon from getting screwed over (I mean in
addition
to serving their interest in the best possible team. And I'm
not
saying they don't or shouldn't have other interests)? I
find it
difficult to believe Shannon isn't interested in this meet. Does
she
have any way of getting around her coach's decisions without
irreparably injuring her relationship with him and thus
jeopardizing her
future success? Of course, I don't know whether she
wants to go or not
(maybe someone here knows and
can fill us in?), but if she does and hadn't
been
able to, she would be getting cheated as much or more than Kara is.
The
process we used in Puerto Rico provided that the top four spots would
be decided at trials and the coaches and officials would
choose the other
two (mainly in order to provide
for injured gymnasts). I think this
is a
pretty decent process, because it combines
trials and "arbitrary"
selection and
announces it up front.
:)
Adriana
"Consistency
is the key to greatness"
-- Jackie Joyner-Kersee
------------------------------
End
of gymn Digest
******************************