GYMN-L Digest - 6 Jun 1995 to 7 Jun 1995

There are 20 messages totalling 641 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. stereotypes and rewards
2. More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes (6)
3. benchmarking
4. What the ..... ? (3)
5. Little Girls In Pretty Boxes
6. Re2-Comments on Little girls...
7. ANNE D. FROM QUEEN'S READ THIS!
8. Sorry for giving my opinion of the book (2)
9. more gymn stuff
10. Thanks Elizabeth
11. The book and ALL the talk about it.
12. comments

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:07:02 PDT
From: ***@CISCO.COM
Subject: Re: stereotypes and rewards

I'm writing a paper for my english class dealing with some of the
stereotypes that gymnasts have to put up with (i.e. tiny, eat lettuce,
training 85 hours a day),

Don't forget "Male gymnasts are all gay". (As a stereotype. Might be
a little controversial for a high school paper, though.)

and also with some of the rewards you get out of gymnastics that most
people don't see. I'd like to know what people have to say. I mainly
need rewards right now, but if you have a good stereotype don't be shy.

Well, for one thing - gymnastics is a sport where people who aren't cut out
for most "popular" sports can do well. Consider your "tiny" stereotype. I
was "tiny" - through 10th or 11 grade I was about the same size as kids
three years younger - which is a lot at that age. My ability in softball,
basketball, football, soccer, etc, etc was about zip. But when we first
had gymnastics in Jr High, I discovered there was a sport where my absolute
strength wasn't as important as my strength compared to my body weight.
And surpise - that wasn't so bad. So, while "before gymnastics", I was
essentially completely shut out of sports, I wasn't any more.

So I went on to enjoy eight years of a successful, if not spectacular,
competitive gymnastics career through high school and college. It probably
helped keep me sane through some of the rough spots in college, certainly
it gave me a broader set of friends than I would have had otherwise and
(insert traditional set of advantages for any sports participation.)

Chops

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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 22:07:21 EDT
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

I got the book! I think it is really good and realistic,
but does not include the "good things" in gymn. Here are a
few interesting things that I found:
1) "I remember a top American official saying to Mary Lou
Retton a year after the 84 Olympics, 'You know, if I could,
I'd take a half a point off just because of that fat hanging
off of your butt,'" Jack Rockwell recalls. "mary Lou just
laughed it off."
2) Kathy Johnson did not begin to menstruate until after she
retired gymnastics at age 25. She really had a tough story-
I cried when I read it... I you guys want me to post it,
tell me and I will.
3) Kristy Phillips tried to kill herself after not making
the Olympic team by slashing her wrists with a pair of
scissors... qtd--- One day, alone in her parents' house, she
opened a kitchen drawer, took out a pair of scissors and
locked herself in the hall bathroom. She pressed one of the
blades into her wrist, but suddenly felt gripped by a
goat.
4) Cathy Rigby was hospitalized 2 times for bulimia
5) Erica Stokes was also REALLY bulimic and collapsed one
day at practice, but Karolyi made her keep going.... qtd---
During workouts, pain stabbed her abdomen (from throwing
up). Once the room turned gray and Erica collapsed. After
eating crackers and resting in Karolyi's office, she was
forced to resume her workout.
6) karolyi refused to let his athletes eat more than : one
apple for breakfast, one apple for lunch and a salad for
dinner before the Olympic Games in 92.
There are lots and lots of more things that I will search
for and put on here later tonight, but those were a few that
stood out. There are LOTS more that are too long to tell
you about I can probably post one or two of the following:
Erica Stokes (interesting)
Kathy Johnson (VERY INTERESTING-Wow)
Negative thing on Steve Nunno- but we all basically already
know all taht stuff...
Michelle Campi's story- (good)
Thing on injuries

Pick one or two and vote- then I'll post the one(s) that
you guys want to see the most.
Anne :)








PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service - Date: 06/06 Time:
10:00 PM

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 10:53:08 PDT
From: ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: Re: benchmarking

When I was 6 I trained 5 hours a week. I only started trainig 22 hours when
I was 10. Now I train 26 hours a week and I am 12.
But then, South Africa aren't world champions, are they?
Helen.

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 11:05:15 PDT
From: ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: What the ..... ?

What is a Rudi on floor?
Thanks,
Helen.

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 11:13:19 +0200
From: ***@CHEETA.INESC.PT
Subject: What the ..... ?

> What is a Rudi on floor?
>Thanks,
>Helen.

I think Rudy is a front sommersault with 540 twist.

Am I right?

--GoodFredo--

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 11:53:52 +0200
From: ***@CTI.ECP.FR
Subject: Little Girls In Pretty Boxes

I would be very much interested in reading "Little girls in pretty boxes"...does
anyone know whether it is available in France ???

Bye
Sophie

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:36:31 BST
From: ***@CS.BHAM.AC.UK
Subject: Re: What the ..... ?

Helen...

On a trampoline (which I think was where the move was first done by some guy
called Rudolf - no really!), a Rudy is a 1 1/2 (540 degress) twisting
single front somersault. However, you can also have double and tripple
somersault skills which have 1 1/2 twists going in or out (or both, eg. a
tripple twisting double back) which also use the name rudy, but in conjunction
with the somersault name. For example, a rudy-out (or more correctly, a rudy-out
fliffis, fliffis meaning double) is a double front somersault with 1 1/2 twists
in (approximately) the middle portion of the second somersault. Likewise, a
rudy-in back-out is a double sommersault where the first somersault takes off
forwards and has 1 1/2 twists, then as that completes the performer rotates
into the second untwisting somersault (which is now going backwards).

As an aside, there is also the 2 1/2 (900 degrees) twisting somersault which
takes the name Randi (yep, first done by some bod called Randolf).

Angela...

Others may correct me here, as I am not a gymnastic tumbler, but if I
translate correctly an arabian double front is a 1/2 twist into a double front
somersault. If this is the case then it *should* be more difficult than a non-
twisting double front, not only from the perspective of mechanics, but also in
terms of the skill required in execution. If, on the other hand, an arabian
double front is a double front somersault with 1/2 a twist comming out of
the second somersault (on a trampoline this would commonly be called a
1/2-out), then this is easier to execute and land safely than a double front,
even though mechanically it requires more effort on the part of the performer.

er...
um...
quite...

Christian

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:42:00 -0400
From: ***@CCMAIL.ORL.MMC.COM
Subject: Re: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

>> Pick one or two and vote- then I'll post the one(s) that you guys want to see
>> the most.


My vote is that you don't post any of them, or if you do then
lets post the long story of Baseball superstars busted
repetedly for drug abuse, or dying in hospitals because
they've destroyed their livers with alchohol, or gotten so
drunk that they plowed their boat into a dock and killed
themselves and another teammate! (Tim Crews was the
brother-in-law of a co-worker of mine) Where is the public
outcry over Baseball!!! We have boxers dying from blows to
the head, race car drivers being killed or paralized on the
track, Racing boat drivers, mountain climbers... When is the
last time you heard of a gymnastics related death (and PLEASE
don't try to blame Kristi on gymnastics, that just doesn't
wash)?

But I guess that their "old enough to know better", so lets
move on to all the problems generated by steroid abuse among
high school (and junior high) football players, not to
mention other drug and alchohol abuse. (I used to be a high
school football trainer back in '76).

But then, we're forcing our precious little girls into this
brutal sport against their wills, aren't we.

When I look at the self confidence, physical and mental
maturity, the ability to work both as a team and as an
individual and the ability to face adversity that gymnastics
has GIVEN to my daughter, I thank (insert your own personal
deity here) that she became interested, and dedicated to
gymnastics. If she never makes it to the elite level, if she
never competes in a national competition, if she gives it up
and walks away from it tomorrow, she will still carry these
gifts with her throughout her life.

I haven't seen the book, nor do I intend to waste my time
reading it, any more than I would waste my time reading the
"National Enquirer". I would much prefer that it be ignored
as the tripe that it is, and be allowed to die a quiet,
obscure death on the discount bookracks of America.

Just my $0.02 (or mor accurately my $227.00/month plus meet
fees).

Ken

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 10:11:03 EDT
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Re2-Comments on Little girls...

To Ken,
Yes, I agree that the book did go overboard, but some of the
things are interesting and true. I am a level 9 gymnast,
who has been hurt about 10 times, had 2 joint reps and lots
of "mental hurts" from the sport. I have been in it almost
all of my life but I have the possibility of "having to
quit" because of a torn ACL, as well as a stress fracture in
my back that will not go away. I am just speaking for
myself here... almost every level 9 and 10 I know is the
same... I am not shooting down gymnastics, because I love it
with all of my heart, but I think that the common public
should be informed about what is going on behind the scenes.
This woman should've included the successes, and the great
memories and lessons-- but she didn't. I know what goes on
behind the scenes in gymnastics, and I also know what can be
a life-time memory (I know mine will be- good and bad).
Tell your daughter good luck for me!!! What level is she and
how old? My sister is a level 8 and she is 8. She WILL NOT
read the book- trust me.
Anne :)

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:25:40 PDT
From: ***@ROYALDIGITAL.COM
Subject: Re: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

>
> My vote is that you don't post any of them, ...
>
> But then, we're forcing our precious little girls into this
> brutal sport against their wills, aren't we.
>
> When I look at the self confidence, physical and mental
> maturity, the ability to work both as a team and as an
> individual and the ability to face adversity that gymnastics
> has GIVEN to my daughter, I thank (insert your own personal
> deity here) that she became interested, and dedicated to
> gymnastics. If she never makes it to the elite level, if she
> never competes in a national competition, if she gives it up
> and walks away from it tomorrow, she will still carry these
> gifts with her throughout her life.
>

I have to agree whole heartedly with Ken. And, of course,
add a little more:

We have a girl on our Intermediate Optionals Team (level 8)
who started having back problems a couple years ago. People
were quick to blame it on gymnastics, but it turns out to be
a hereditary, degenerative problem that was actually not
made worse by gymnastics. However, this condition causes
her an enormous amount of pain, especially with gymnastics.
But she refused to quit, and under the watchful eyes of her
doctor, coaches and parents, she continues to improve her
skill level and she is a joy to watch. And through this
she has given her teammates valuable lessons in for life
in general.

The way our girls turn out and the way they deal with
problems has more than one cause. It is possible that if
any of the bulemic gymnasts had been in some other sport
or activity they would have had some sort of expression
of low self esteem (one underlying cause of eating disorders).
Perhaps Joan Ryan should research the family lives of
gymnasts and skaters, those who had problems and those
who did not, and write a book on this. My guess is that
those who survive the rigors of gymnastics and skating
have families who love them no matter what and know how
to show that.

Sorry to go on so long...so much for my $.02.

Diane

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 12:58:38 -0400
From: ***@QLINK.QUEENSU.CA
Subject: ANNE D. FROM QUEEN'S READ THIS!

Sorry to send this to you all, but a little while ago there was a post
concerning a boy with no legs doing gymn, and I'm ashamed to say I lost
one of the repliee's (sp?) addresses, so Anne, if you read
this, send me your email address to both 3btc@qlink.queensu.ca and
aw462@freenet.carleton.ca

Thanks and sorry again

Bryan

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 13:28:10 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

>She really had a tough story-
>I cried when I read it... I you guys want me to post it,
>tell me and I will.

Man, I hate to be the heavy, but as someone who has both been a writer and a
publisher, I gotta jump in...

Because this would be a severe violation of intellectual property rights, I
am certain Robin, Rachele, and George will quite correctly disallow any
postings from this book, regardless of how much all of us would love to rob
this yellow journalist of any financial recompense she feels is her due.

Please, guys, be careful and read the FAQ. I am sure the author of this chunk
of hardbound bathroom tissue would take exquisite delight in taking legal
action against this list, those on it, and those running it, including PSU.
If you want to synopsize, fine. But be extremely careful.

IMHO, I think if the author was really interested in learning the facts, or
at least enjoining us in a knowledgable debate, she would post the entire
text online for anonymous FTP. The fact that she WON'T, even though such a
posting would barely dent her sales, indicates to me that she is far more
interested in squeezing every penny from her sputum of salacious
sensationalism than actually doing anything about the supposed "victims" of
skating and gymn.

I'm done now. Flame me by email to keep the clutter down.

David

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 15:23:46 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

<< Karolyi refused to let his athletes eat more than one apple for breakfast,
one apple for lunch and a salad for dinner before the Olympic Games.>>

I don't think this is true at all. I for sure remember Dominique Dawes
saying how Bela made them eat spagetti in Barcelona for energy. Also, in his
book, Bela talked a lot about how he made the Nadia generation eat cheese and
meat all the time. Besides, the girls weren't in the gym all day--they went
to school and lived at home--so I don't think he could control their eating
habits. I've read where Kim Zmeskal said the group would always go to TCBY
and eat tons of frozen yogurt.

Also, about the Erica Stokes story, I thought it was Bela's practice to throw
kids out of the gym for the day if they weren't up to practice. How would he
FORCE someone to work out?

One more thing: I'm confused about Kathy Johnson. I've read on this list
and in other places how she had such a bad experince in gymnastics, but she
always raves about the sport when she's commentating. Why would she work in
the sport if she hated it? She competed before my time, so I don't know much
about her competitive years except what I've read.

Ann Marie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 14:31:09 EDT
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Sorry for giving my opinion of the book

Sorry for giving MY $.02, but I guess it doesn't matter
around here. I mean, it's not like I'm some dumb,
uneducated spectator... I am a level 9 national competetor
and I am just giving my opinion. I feel like I have been
totally shot down by just stating clear and published facts.
These gymnasts were quoted on their stories, so the lady is
not fabricating... I kept an open mind when I read the book
and some of the things really hit close to home, if you know
what I mean. Yes, there are millions of good things about
gymnastics, but this book is about what goes into training
and what really happened to the people who just disappeared.
I feel that if you do not understand these problems in
gymnastics and I MEAN problems, you have not been IN
gymnastics and faced the military-like training on a
national level. How can you say that these things aren't
true? How can calling your gymnasts pregnant animals and
telling them that they are hogs if they eat a peach for
lunch (THAT WAS AN ERICA STOKES EXAMPLE) or not letting your
gymnasts eat more than an apple for breakfast, lunch and a
salad for dinner directly before the 92 Olympics... how can
you say that that doesn't lead to this type of thinking when
EVERYDAY you hear that you're fat, or that you are a hog.
This type of reinforcement leads to bulimia and anorexia.
Anyway, gymnastics is great and I have been in it all of my
life and I am giving thought on being a judge, but as in all
greats there are serious serious downfalls... I have had 2
reconstructed joints (knee, elbow), among 7 other broken
bones and dislocations, a stress fracture in my back that
refuses to heal among the mental stress of all that has been
mentioned in the book. I won't go into that, but let's just
say that I have experienced years of it. Anyway, I'll stop
babbling now and let you guys yell some more. I won't write,
I might spark a controversy.
Anne

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 18:51:26 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Sorry for giving my opinion of the book

<<Sorry for giving MY $.02, but I guess it doesn't matter around here.>>

Anne,

Don't apologize for your post! You were simply stating your point of view.
You didn't insult, attack or hurt anyone. GYMN is supposed to be a friendly
discussion list. If other people are making you (or anyone else, for that
matter) feel bad for a well-meaning post, then they are the ones who should
apologize! As someone who is currently in the sport at a high level, your
opinion is certainly credible! Please don't let anyone keep you from
participating on the list!

Ann Marie

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 15:55:55 -0700
From: ***@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: more gymn stuff

Personally, I'd like to see more statistics on injuries:
type, severity, when they occur, how to prevent, etc.

Does anyone have that information handy out there?
-------------------------------------------------------

What seems to be the difference in gymnastics from any
other female sport, is age.

In track or road racing, national level is not obtained
until 16-17 and then international 18-39yrs old. The
competitor's are typically old enough by 16+ to make a
conscious decision, to set a goal and work hard and
make sacrifices for that goal.

In gymnastics, the parent(s) is making that decision for
the most part up until age 12-14 or so. A kid CAN't know
know what it means, what they are giving up, what they
need to do, etc. And it could be that most of the kids
aren't mentally and physically ready for the demands of
national and international training/competition.

I really think it's disgusting how the international
coaches seem to be racing puberty to get their prodigies
into the limelight. Geez, top international athletes
are in their 30s... powerlifters: strength, flexibility,
and speed.. sprinters: strength and speed...
marathoners: endurance... divers: flexibility...
ballet: flexibility - ok. not 30s here, but 20s
and the list goes on. So how did things go wrong
with gymnastics and how can it be fixed?

Regarding my own daughter, I'm sure that common sense
and information about nutrition and eating habits will
be the best thing. AND if her coach abuses her by
calling her names such as a "pregnant animal" for
eating a peach, I'd yank her out pretty darn fast.
It's not worth it. She IS a minor and I AM her parent.

Ruth

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 19:51:10 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this one, but I just gotta say
one thing...

Gymnastics was the best part of my life for nine years, and it's still a
sport I love and follow. I certainly think a book that focuses only on the
problems is missing a _big_ part of the sport. Still, if I had a daughter
who wanted to be a gymnast I'd be extremely careful about where and how she
trained, and she'd have to do a lot of work to convince me to let her train
at a serious level.

I find it perfectly absurd to think that all the gymnasts with eating
disorders would have similar disorders if they weren't gymnasts. Some
would, but the figures on eating disorders in the gymnastics community are
a _lot_ higher than in the community at large. In my own case, being called
lard-ass several times a day (I was 5'0 and 95 pounds, too light to
menstruate given my relatively broad build) certainly affected my eating
habits. Losing enough weight to stop menstruating meant not getting
screamed at once a month for gaining two pounds in water weight just prior
to my period.

How many female non-athletes get stress fractures? How many gymnasts? How
about growth plate compression injuries? Other stress injuries?

Proper training techniques can minimize the risk of most kinds of injuries,
but stress injuries are a direct result of the kind of training that's
necessary in high-caliber gymnastics.

If I had a daughter, I'd prefer to see her in a recreational gymnastics
program or a competitive swimming/diving program.

My $.02. Flame away if you must...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 20:09:18 EDT
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Thanks Elizabeth

I just wanted to thank you for writing back... I was a
little "disgruntled" <hehe> when I wrote that note. I
totally agree with you. I am not by any means defending
Joan Ryan (is that her name), or her book, I'm just saying
that these things do go on. Yep, she should have definitely
brought up the good things too. What gets me is that these
people are stating that these things are lies-- THEY ARE
NOT... they were qtd from NUMEROUS gymnasts. It seems as if
people just don't want to believe this is true... no,
Karolyi didn't do that, no, that's not right, no Anne,
you're lying... and they didn't even READ THE BOOK! At
least READ the book before making comments (ya know what I
mean?). I just see pure denial on here that's all, and it
makes me boil!!! Anyway, thanks a lot... I totally agree
with you, and you read (or at least it seems like) the book!
Oh well! WBS!
Anne :)

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 20:33:17 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: The book and ALL the talk about it.

I have to agree with some people who commented that we need to hear both
the good and the bad. I would probably like to read this book now, but
I am afraid that I will be contributing to Ms.Ryan's income, so I will
wait until a library near me gets it. I don't, generally, support people
who write "tell all books", whether it be about a sport or a person.


If someone could, who has the book, please tell me:



Does Ms. (or Mrs. or what ever) give a reason in the preface (if there is
one) abou twhy she chose this topic?



Thanks,


Jeff

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 22:30:07 -0400
From: ***@TSO.CIN.IX.NET
Subject: Re: comments

Kudos to anyone who dare to disagree with the norm.
Anne, while I am impressed with your passion for your opinion, I must
admit I am reluctant to believe everything I read in print. (I will also
admit that I ahve my name on a waiting list at my local library to read
this "deeply researched" literary saga).
Once I have had a chance to read it, I would like to compare impressions
of it with you, and see if it matches up with any other articles I have
read.
TTYL,
Liz

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 6 Jun 1995 to 7 Jun 1995
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