GYMN-L Digest - 8 Apr 1995 to 9 Apr 1995
There are 17 messages totalling 564 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Central region results
2. TV coverage in South Africa (2)
3. SA Open Metropolitan Life Cup
4. Eastern Regionals (Men)
5. Code Ideas (2)
6. values of skills, etc on floor
7. FIG
8. The Age Limit & Mina Kim
9. ages (4)
10. African Championships
11. Eastern Regionals clarification
12. Dom in USA Weekend
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 22:57:10 EDT
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Central region results
Here goes nothing. I attended the NCAA central region
Championships today and it was great. Here are the results
for those of you that can't live without them. Oh---first
some notes. Kim Kelly crashed on bars during warmups and
did not complete them during the finals. Bars was the down
fall for more than a few gymnasts, some very "nasty"
spills.Beam was also a down fall for at tleast two teams. 3
10's were handed out, all on vault. One for Kim Kelly's pike
double front handspring--at least that is what it looked
like to me. As I have stated in the past, techincal names
are not my field.
Here are the results.
Vault
7th 9.925 Merit Booth--UA/Chasity Junkin--UA
4th 9.95 Wendy Lahucik-ISU/Heather Kabnick--UM/Beth
Wymer--UM
1st 10.00 Kim Kelly--UA/Jennifer Wood--LSU/Wendy
Marshall--UM
UB
7th 9.8 Stephanie Woods--UA/Adia Canovas--LSU/Kristy
Savoie--LSU/Beth Wymer--UM
5th 9.825 Meredith Willard--UA/Wood--LSU
1st 9.85 Larrisa Lowing--LSU/Syreeta Barnett--LSU/Kim
Bonaventura--UA/Bench
BB
7th 9.85 Wendy Marshall
4th 9.875 Murphy--UA/McAdams--UA/Bonaventura--UA
3rd 9.925 Kelly--UA
1st 9.95 Woods--UA/Wymer--UM
FX
6th 9.775 McCloskey--LSU/Kelly--UA
5th 9.8 Junkin--UA
2nd 9.825 Murphy--UA/Kabnick--UM/Marshall--UM
1st 9.85 Wood--LSU
AA
3rd 39.25 Wendy Marshall --UM
2nd 39.35 Beth Wymer UM
1st 39.475 Jennifer Wood LSU
Teams
7th 188.90 Southeast Missouri
6th 189.45 Northern Illinios
5th 189.6 University Illinios-Chicago
4th 189.875 Illinios State
3rd 195.075 Louisiana State
2nd 195.725 University of Michigan
1st 196.675 University of Alabama
that is it!!! Talk to you later.
Deb
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:07:07 +0200
From: ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: TV coverage in South Africa
The last gym we saw on TV was in October last year - African Championships.
We were supposed to see the Dortmund Worlds but it was cancelled because of
golf! :( The only gym we have seen on TV this year is the SA Open which
we saw yesterday.
Compared to us, you, in America, seem to see lots of gymnastics.(Nadia
goes home, Peachtree Classic) I can't say this is true but that is the
way it seems. :)
Helen.
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 12:56:38 +0200
From: ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: SA Open Metropolitan Life Cup
Results-Men
FX PH Rings Vault PB HB Total
Cristian Brezeanu IND* 9.150 8.800 8.550 9.450 8.400 8.300 52.650
Anton Goldman RSA 8.850 8.400 8.900 8.750 8.800 8.900 52.600
Jeff Lavallee USA 8.350 8.000 8.950 9.250 8.500 9.350 52.400
Alexey Sinkevitch BLR 9.000 9.150 8.400 8.500 8.550 8.550 52.150
Johan van Heerden RSA 8.650 8.400 7.950 8.900 8.300 8.800 51.000
Adrian Steyn RSA 7.750 7.750 7.950 9.050 8.000 8.800 50.000
Yacine Othmani ALG 8.100 8.300 8.000 8.850 8.550 8.150 49.950
Athol Myhill RSA 7.850 8.200 8.350 8.800 8.700 8.450 49.650
* Individual-Romanian born now living in South Africa.
Sinkevitch was the favourite but falls and stombles on landings kept him
out of the medals. His floor and pommel routines were clean and neat. He is
more supple than most male gymnasts.
Cristian Brezeanu showed great difficulty on all apparatus'.Floor-full
twisting double layout; layout, layout, layout-full (front)and double
layout (hands down). On vault he showed a double twisting Tsukahara with
a good landing. Unfortunately he missed his Tcatchev on bar but still
managed to hang on to first place.
Anton Goldman had a great competition and finished just .05 behind Brezeanu.
Jeff Lavallee struggled with all his landings but showed a great HB routine
with a high level of difficulty including high consecutive Tcatchevs.
One of the commentators remarked on pommel horse that one of the
gymnasts *lost his legs* :)
Individual-Women
V UB BB FX Total
Elena Piskun BLR 9.700 9.700 9.600 9.875 38.875
Elena Savko BLR 9.375 9.300 8.600 9.325 36.800
Jennie Cox GBR 9.300 8.925 9.175 9.300 36.700
Ashley Kever USA 9.125 8.850 8.925 9.350 36.250
Joanne West RSA 9.400 9.350 8.175 8.825 35.750
Heidi Oosthuizen RSA 9.125 9.000 8.975 8.475 35.575
Jeanine Saville RSA 8.850 8.550 8.950 9.025 35.375
Ilse Roets RSA 8.900 8.550 8.150 8.300 33.900
Elena Piskun thrilled the crowd with difficult skills thrown gracefully
and without flaws, as she returned to South Africa. She was the favourite
from the beginning and won the hearts of the South African public as she
finished two points ahead of her countryman and the rest of the field.
Piskun nailed a beautiful full twisting Yurchenko on boyh attempts.On
bar she performed hop full,hop full, Deltchev which sailed high above the bar
and finished gracefully with a double layout. On beam she did a triple
fic with a full turn in the last one, a flic twist and a double pike
dismount. Her floor routine entertained the crowd and earned a standing
ovation. The tumbles were as follows: 1-whip to triple twist 2-2&1/2
twist immediate layout front and 3-handspring 1&1/2 twisting layout front.
The other Belarussian girl, Elena Savko, showed a nice bar routine. The
cast to handstand slip grip, backstraddle handstand, stalder, hecht was a
great combo and the high double tuck finished it all off.
The 14 year old British girl, Jennie Cox, also impressed with lovely
style, neat routines and long,flowing arms and hands. It's clear in her
dance that she is coached by an Eastern European. (Adrian Stan-Romania)
Unfortunately all the local girls were plagued by falls and unnessecary
errors. :(
Phew! I am glad that's over with!
Helen.
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 07:24:19 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Eastern Regionals (Men)
1995 NCAA Men's Gymnastics East Regional
Saturday, April 8, 1995
University Park, PA
attendance 1112
The following qualified from the East to NCAA Nationals.
1. Penn State, 229.50 (38.725, 38.550, 38.750, 36.950, 38.275, 38.250)
2. Iowa, 229.375 (39.025, 37.900, 38.425, 37.200, 38.425, 38.400)
3. Ohio State, 228.975 (38.000, 38.500, 38.725, 37.200, 38.200, 38.350)
4. Temple, 228.125 (38.800, 37.700, 38.000, 37.100, 37.875, 38.650)
5. Univ. of Minnesota, 227.300 (38.350, 36.575, 38.700, 37.625, 38.000, 38.050)
6. Univ. of Illinois-Chicago, 224.050 (38.600, 36.900, 37.500, 36.850, 37.100,
37.100)
ALL-AROUND
Brian Yee, 58.250, Univ. of Minnesota
Danny Akerman, 57.025, Temple
Steve Marshall, 56.700, Army
FLOOR EXERCISE
Brian Winkler, 9.925, Michigan
Shannon Welker, 9.875, Illinois-Chic
Darin Gerlach, 9.850, Temple
POMMEL HORSE
Jeremiah Landry, 9.875, Illinois
Jeff Kraft, 9.750, Western Michigan
Chase Penny , 9.700, Illinois-Chic
RINGS
Kevin Schwartz, 9.850, UMASS
Dave Frank, 9.750, Temple
Chris Harrington 9.700, Minnesota
Royce Toni, 9.700, Michigan
VAULT
Colby Van Cleve 9.600, Minnesota
Ofri Porat, 9.600, Syracuse
Sebronzik Wright 9.575, William & Mary
PARALLEL BARS
Dave Frank, 9.675, Temple
Royce Toni, 9.675, Michigan
Brian Winkle, 9.500, Michigan
HIGH BAR
Carl Imhauser, 9.750, Temple
Dubie Bader, 9.750, Temple
Frank Ticknor, 9.650, Minnesota
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:02:29 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: TV coverage in South Africa
On Sun, 9 Apr 1995, Helen Crewe wrote:
> The last gym we saw on TV was in October last year - African Championships.
You got to see the African Championships on TV?! Cool! Can you tell us
about it?
:)
Adriana
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:43:03 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Code Ideas
I've been wanting to get in on this discussion, b/c it's one of my
favorites. I've had something similar to what Amanda proposed in mind,
but only for skills above a C, i.e. the ones that get bonus points.
Which doesn't mean we couldn't have number ratings for A-C; we should
probably have them so meets with modified difficulty requirements could
work the same way. But at the elite level, do we really care to
differentiate between A's, B's, and C's? It would reduce the burden on
judges.
I don't think the idea of submitting a routine ahead of time
necessarily locks the gymnast into a routine. It lets the judge have
something there already and simply note the changes. I don't know about
the judges in figure skating, but don't the commentators already have the
program in front of them? Or is it like in gymnastics, where we all just
know the routine because we've seen it before? Anyway, if the
differentiation between skills is limited to D+ skills, I don't think the
judges -- or rather, the STC's -- will have to do much more adding than
they already have to do. Well, on second thought, things might get
hairy with connection bonus. I still have to think about that. Btw,
another aspect of the women's Code that makes differentiation impossible
is that in connections, D's and E's count exactly the same. So, for
example, whip to tucked full-in and whip to double layout get the same
connection bonus. E skills exist only for extra D/E bonus (0.1 vs. 0.2).
As to the "magic" 10, I really don't think the pubic would riot if we got
rid of it. People deal with diving just fine. Make a big deal of the
execution score like they do. Actually, I think a lot of people would
enjoy watching to see if the next gymnast can outdo the previous.
:)
Adriana
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:47:02 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: values of skills, etc on floor
> > if you give each skill a differenbt number as some of you were doing you
> > will kill the judges-they cant possibly remember every number for every
> > skill-it will also take them much much more time-adrienne
> >
>
> Every skill already has a number (different than the value), and a
> special symbol used to identify it. The symbols have to be memorized
> anyway.
>
Every skill does have a number, but no one actually *knows* all of them.
Learning the shorthand symbols is easier than learning numbers.
:)
Adriana
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:47:53 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: FIG
> dismount. I was under the assumption that in order for a move to be in the
> FIG it had to have been performed and to my knowledge this move has not. I
There are a few skills in the Code (the women's, anyway, and from your
post clearly the men's too) that haven't been performed (or performed
successfully, which is required to get a skill in the Code) and are listed
anyway. In women's it's mostly (all?) vaults. Don't ask me why.
:)
Adriana
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 11:32:25 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: The Age Limit & Mina Kim
When I was editing commercials out of Peachtree and listening to the (mostly
inane) commentary, something did occur to me...
If Mina Kim is misses the Atlanta deadline by 2 weeks, she also misses the
new age limit for '97 Worlds by 2 weeks, and would not be eligible to try for
a Worlds team until 1999!
Mara
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 13:30:27 -0400
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: ages
The Romanians certainly weren't the only ones to raise gymnasts' ages to
make them eligible for competition. The Soviets did it too. YEARS later, like
in 1989 or 1990 or something, the Soviet press admitted that Bicherova was only
13 when she won the 1981 Worlds in Moscow! Which helps explain the longevity of
her career (she performed at '87 US-USSR). Also, I'm pretty sure Oksana
Omelianchik's birthdate was changed by a couple of days to make it look like
she was born in '69 instead of '70 so she would be eligible in '84. (She was
alternate for the alternate games). I think her REAL b-day is in Jan. '70, but
you'll often see it listed as late Dec. '69.
And of course, the North Koreans and Gim Gwang Suk are the most notorious
case. She was 15-16 for about 3 years! Does anyone know how old she REALLY is?
Also, does anyone think that raising the age limit to 16 is going to
result in more age-falsifying of this kind? I wouldn't be surprised...
Beth
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 20:55:35 +0200
From: ***@MAIL.LSS.CO.ZA
Subject: African Championships
Well I'll tell you what I can remember. (I just taped over it for
yesterday's competition because I didn't have space on any other tapes -
bummer :< )
I didn't see the rhythmic but I know Egypt won the team competition and
an Egyptian girl won the allround with a South African girl coming second.
Womens AA:
The South African girls did extremely well taking the top three positions.
Heidi Oosthuizen 1st, Joanne West 2nd, Ilse Roets 3rd. The placings could
have been diffirent if the leading Morrocan gymnast, Naima El Rhouati, hadn't
injured an already sore ankle, as she was lying third after the first two
apparatus'.
Mens AA:
I'm not sure who came where, but it was an Algerian guy, Yacine Othmani,
who took the top spot.
Womens Team:
1st South Africa, 2nd Morroco, 3rd Egypt.
Mens Team:
1st Algeria, 2nd South Africa, 3rd
Womens Apparatus:
Vault: 1st-Joanne West RSA 9.325, 2nd Rita Ghatas EGY 9.200, =3rd Karima
Sahlal MOR & Naima El Rhouati MOR 9.150
Bar: 1st Joanne West RSA 9.250, 2nd Naima El Rhouati MOR 9.075, 3rd Mai
Mohammed EGY 8.700
Beam: 1st Heidi Oosthuizen RSA 9.200, 2nd Karima Sahlal MOR 8.700, 3rd Ilse
Roets RSA 8.600
Floor: 1st Joanne West RSA 8.900, 2nd Rita Ghatas EGY 8.750, 3rd Heidi
Oosthuizen RSA 8.700
Mens Apparatus:
Floor:
1st Kalid Sadir MOR 8.675
Pommel Horse:
1st Yacine Othmani ALG 9.150
Rings:
1st Driss Alaoui MOR 9.125
Vault:
1st Kalid Sadir MOR 9.400
Parralell Bars:
1st Adrian Steyn RSA 8.675
High Bar:
1st Dewald Laubscher RSA 9.300
Helen.
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 15:14:18 -0400
From: ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: ages
> Also, does anyone think that raising the age limit to 16 is going to
> result in more age-falsifying of this kind? I wouldn't be surprised...
Probably. It isn't going to solve anything either, as far as protecting
young kids from whatever it is the change is supposed to protect them
from (too intensive training at too young an age or whatever),
and it's just going to mess up the careers of girls whose ages aren't
falsified.
:)
Adriana
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 13:12:58 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Eastern Regionals clarification
The top 3 of the six teams qualified to Nationals -- sorry for the
confusion.
Rachele
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 18:23:55 -0400
From: ***@FIT.EDU
Subject: Re: ages
> Also, does anyone think that raising the age limit to 16 is going to
> result in more age-falsifying of this kind? I wouldn't be surprised...
I think it will definitely result in more age-falsifying!!
Coasches want their gymnasts to be able to compete when they're at their
best. If a gymnast's birthday is a few days (or weeks) shy of the cut-off,
they'll change the date (especially if they know they can get away with it).
The only country that might be more than a little wary of this
might be N. Korea. ;)
Laura :)
This is my 0.02.
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 15:56:31 -0700
From: ***@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU
Subject: Dom in USA Weekend
there's a huge cover article in this weekend's USA Weekend, an
insert in many local Sunday newspapers.
I liked the article, but there was a lot of comments on how she's
"hired an agent to find a way to make use of the great facial bone
structure and million-dollar smile she was born with." Which doesn't
sound too bad except the author (Del Giudice who lives in Jenkinstown,
PA) makes a big deal about her body during the article , such as the
intro paragraph. It reads, in part:
"Her name is Dominique Dawes, and the first thing you notice
about her is that chiseled 5 foot 1/4 inch, 98 pound body. It is perfect,
and all you want to do is look at it."
Not exactly molestation, but doesn't exactly make me want to sign
up any future kids of mine into the sport.
USA Weekend also made me mad because they interspersed two Mary
Lou Retton quotes into what looks like one quote in bold. During the
article, she says "she's (Dom) a real 90's gymnast, explosive and athletic".
Much later in the article, she says "She's not in it for the exposure.
She's true." USA Weekend therefore combined the two quotes over a Dom
picture to read as follows - "'Dawes is a real 90's gymnast,' observes Mary
Lou Retton. 'She's not in it for the exposure'"
Which really makes it sound like she's saying that most gymnasts
today are in gymnastics for the money, fame and glory. Except that she
didn't say that. Grrrr.
Taped Peachtree Invit. I like Mina Kim's potetial, and yes, she
is smaller than Jennie T. - you can see it the shot of the 'Shannon with
her team' interview at the end. Who I really liked was the 13 year-old
Zeena from Australia. Beautiful floor and beam choreography and
execution. And for those who think that Aussies can't tumble, I'd show
them a tape of her extra-high first pass, RO, 2 whips through to double
back. Cool choreography as well!
Liked the choreography of Shannon's new routine very much -
there's a lot of complex combinations of dance in it that really are
wonderful. She just needs to look up and sell it. And not break her arm
line at her wrists. I also love her back extention rolls on beam -
poetry, I tell ya!
Hey, under "stupid commentator remarks" y'all for got to mention
John Nabor and his added syllable to the word 'athlete'. I think Nancy
R.'s mentioned that one before as well.
Cara
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 19:50:02 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: ages
> The only country that might be more than a little wary of this
might be N. Korea. ;)
I doubt it. They'll probably just be smart enough not to say they're 15 3
years in a row!
Mara
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 18:40:25 -0700
From: ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: Re: Code Ideas
> I've been wanting to get in on this discussion, b/c it's one of my
> favorites. I've had something similar to what Amanda proposed in mind,
> but only for skills above a C, i.e. the ones that get bonus points.
> Which doesn't mean we couldn't have number ratings for A-C; we should
> probably have them so meets with modified difficulty requirements could
> work the same way. But at the elite level, do we really care to
> differentiate between A's, B's, and C's? It would reduce the burden on
> judges.
There isn't that much of a point in differentiating between the
lower valued skills, I agree. Not when world titles are won with double
layouts and triple fulls. Good point. . .
> As to the "magic" 10, I really don't think the pubic would riot if we got
> rid of it. People deal with diving just fine. Make a big deal of the
> execution score like they do. Actually, I think a lot of people would
> enjoy watching to see if the next gymnast can outdo the previous.
Also, when the scores come up from the judges, there still would
be potential to score a 10, in fact, more than one! It is still exciting
in skating when a skater gets a 6.0. It brings down the house.
I lost the original post, but I strongly disagree with the premise
of keeping an inaccurate scoring system so the "American public" will be
happy. First of all, gymnastics is an international sport for those of
you that don't know. Also you have to remember that the average American
viewer doesn't contribute very much to the popularity of the sport beyond
the Olympics. They couldn't care less about it. Then when our overhyped
US athletes fail to win Olympic golds they slam the sport as stealing
childhoods. The idea that we should let the American viewing audience run
the sport is outrageous. So what if the "perfect 10" is exciting to them,
do they know anything about the sport or what's good for it?
Here's a good example, my brother is tres American and he was
glued to the set during the Olympics. He could tell me who won Olympic
trials. But then after the closing ceremonies he goes back to watching
football, basketball and baseball and is more than annoyed whenever ESPN
happens to show gymnastics and bothers to get mad at me, as though
something somewhere was not televised because of it. It has been my
observation that gymnastics is played only when NOTHING else can be shown.
But since he is a viewer why not let him make up some rules that
are pleasing to him, the average American viewer. He suggested to me that
gymnastics would be a lot better if it was a race, and that whoever could
do all four events the fastest would be the winner. He said it would be a
lot more exciting if they were timed, and raced from one event to the
next, running from the floor to the vault and not even stopping or slowing
down after they've landed their vault but kept right on running to the
bars. Also, the gymnasts should all have to do Dobre's famous pose (which
he saw from my poster) on beam or else they are disqualified
automatically. Let's hear it for the average American viewer.
Amanda
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End of GYMN-L Digest - 8 Apr 1995 to 9 Apr 1995
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