gymn Digest Fri, 16 Sep 94 Volume 3 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
'94 Women's Jr. Euros (2 msgs)
All-American Girl
All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.) (4 msgs)
A possible way to get to more gymnastics on TV (2 msgs)
A statement about weight
Back to basics
brian301/facts
flaming and stuff
flashjim@by-line/RE:nunno post
Gymn netiquette
Internet
Internet questions
Karolyi Interview (2 msgs)
Libelous Gymn Talk (2 msgs)
Mary Lou on TV
my Dynamo post
Nunnnnno
Nunno
Nunno etc.
Outrageous Opinions (was Re: Nunnnnno) (2 msgs)
Recent Gymn Events
THE FACTS!

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 17:31:26 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: '94 Women's Jr. Euros

Well I know that this isn't terribly apt timing but I just saw a video of the
'94 Jr. W Euros EF (May 12-15th in SWE) and had a few thoughts to share ...

Vault:

You know Ana Maria Bican (ROM) won this event (9.768 avg.) but I could swear
she did a Yurchenko full and then a Yurchenko double full (both with messy
legs). Two different families rule anyone? Maybe I'm just going insane. I
also think that Elena Lebedeva (RUS) did the exact same vault (Yurchenko 1/2
front) twice with a fall on the first one.

Nicolett Krause (HUN) took the silver with a super clean Yurchenko full and
an astonishingly sloppy pike hand half. 9.743.

Vasso Tsavdaridou (GRE) boomed a *HUGE* (and clean) pike front as well as an
equally grand pike handspring front ... 9.718 for 3rd.

Elvire Teza (FRA) had a great looking Hristakieva that went terribly wrong on
landing and then her second vault was the very simple layout Yurchenko ...
these Chinese coaches just have no idea what the term "vault finals" means.
9.274 avg. for 7th

Uneven Bars ...

Isabelle Severino (FRA) - totally average set and yet she won ... go figure
... it pays to be last eh? Hop full, hop full, Geinger (oh that's why she won
... she had *big time* bonus) ... tuck full-in dismount (very messy)

Lebedeva - Tkatchev ... full into Geinger (big form break) ... great double
layout ... 9.812 and 2nd

Olga Teslenko (UKR) - mounted with a nifty sole circle adaptation (the '70's
are back) ... straddle Jaeger ... fantastic inverts (Chussy/Li Lu style) into
a double front ... 9.775 and 3rd

Letitia Begue (FRA) - Xiao ... true inverts into a Jaeger ... full-in
dismount ... 9.762

Joana Juarez (ESP) - Fraguas toe point and bad leg form ... full & 1/2 ...
straddle Jaeger ... double layout off

Elena Grosheva (RUS) miffed her Pak salto to botch that stunning set ... 9.35
... Bican took an extra swing out of her release for the same score and her
share of 7th place (I'm sure she was pleased ... overall it just wasn't her
day) ... Alexandra Marinescu (ROM) stumbled into 6th with a 1 1/2 into Jaeger
immed. transition to low (this is where the error was) ... cool stuff too bad
she missed

Balance Beam ...

Marinescu (1st AA & BB) - great set ... packed with difficulty ... nice form
and dance moves ... *very* "Un-Romanian" of her. Straddle press to split
handstand into a scale into a forward roll ... FF, FF, LO, LO ... slit leap
into fish jump into sisson ... a really *great* double stag Yang Bo ... split
leap into FF (very common amongst the sets I saw - I assume to make damn
sure they get credit for a mixed series) ... a "Romanian" (meaning sloppy and
careless) full turn ... messy (is there any other kind?) side aerial with a
big balance check ... FF into tuck full ( very clean) ... FF, FF (legs
together), double tuck dismount (stuck) ... 9.887

Begue (2nd AA & 5th BB) - I really like the "new" French. They are flexible
beyond belief and totally clean ... they have a real panache that comes from
their Chinese *and* Romanian coaches (talk about your diverse philosophies)
... Letitia is also noteworthy for staying up on her toes (until the dismount
where the lack is all too noticeable) and having the best leaps this side of
Beijing (no contest) ... straddle press to split handstand into tic toc ...
180+ degree split leap immed. Rulfova (high and crisp) ... decent full turn
... split leap into fish ... FF, LO (only tumbling series and it was kind of
messy - I've seen her do more before - FF, LO, LO - and do it all cleaner)
... huge sisson immed. Rulfova (just to prove that she can do it any old way
thank you very much) ... RO double tuck ... 9.487 ... a bit low IMHO ...
though there were obvious errors its seemed at least medal worthy

Teza (6th AA & 3rd BB) - This girl has the funkiest back since Alicia
Fernandez ... scary isn't it? ... She's gymnastics Surya Bonlay (yes she's
black). She mounts with this funky press into Korbut-type chin stand into
pseudo tic toc kinda' thing that is really cool while at the same time making
you say "the human back should not bend in that way" and feeling slightly
nauseous ... split leap immed. Rulfova (very short of rotation) ... needle
scale ... another lame FF LO "series" ... the compulsory split leap into FF
mixed series ... 2 straddle jumps that male Pod and Dawes look arthritic ...
high and clean Bo jump marred only by a balance check on landing ... fish
immed. Rulfova (better then the first one but still not great) ... nifty 2
1/2 twist dismount ... 9.525

Other nifty bits ... A spiffy Bulgarian named Ivanova (this time it's "Elena"
... BTW, has Tody-Ivanova retired yet?) ... a Ukrainian, Lyubov Sheremeta,
(2nd BB with a 9.775 - too high) performed an Onodi but was otherwise pretty
cloddish which isn't exactly a glowing recommendation of their future in the
sport (she was 11th AA which was the highest UKR Jr. - If there had a been a
Jr. team comp. it would have been ROM, RUS, & **FRA** in the top three slots
which gives you something to think about in the "new world order"). Bican
fell off on her mount and Grosheva was lovely and underscored (per usual) in
4th place (9.5) here (5th AA).

Floor Exercise ...

Viktoria Bakos (GRE) - another nifty Greek Jr. speaks of the power of their
program ... decent dance and a funky run/hurdle ... whip thru to pike full-in
(clean but low) ... front, front, Rudi (the whole run was very scary low) ...
ending with another pike full-in ... 9.725

Begue - whip thru to triple ... ugly cowboyed tuck full-in that was way short
... bad triple to end ... Li Li back spin ... dance starts out great and
degenerates to only "ok" ... 9.6 (last place)

Lebedeva - crisp but uninspired dance (which seems to be the norm for Russia
these days ... well it's better then nothing I guess) ... whip to tuck
full-in ... front, front full, punch front ... Rudi ... bad Shus ... a
"sorta' tucked/sorta' piked" full-in to end ... 9.75

Marinescu - She's small, cute, blond, a decent dancer, & she's Romo ... which
of these things don't belong? Front step-out to tuck full-in (high) ...
another nice Bo Jump ... front, front full, punch front (very common pass)
... triple (a tad short) ... 9.787

Teza - If you combined the already mentioned Alicia Fernandez's back with
Stella Umeh's attitude & flair and then added in Zaripova's flexibility you'd
have Teza. I mean her name's "Elvire" for god's sake so you know she's gotta'
be cool. Her routine was pretty neat-o dance wise - but then again my
standards have fallen and I'll accept almost anything half way creative as
"dance" these days. Her routine was carefully constructed around the code and
is the first one I've seen in memory that contained *NO* back tumbling and
the minimum requirement of 2 tumbling runs. I don't really like this trend
(that and the French's minimum acro series on BB speak volumes of their Romo
code pleasing influence) but it worked for her here as she got a 9.7. Front
step out to front full ... illusion turn into boffo (RSG type) Y-scale ...
Popa ... front, Rudi ... amazing needle scale to end. I swear that this kid
escaped from rhythmic because she was too short and to much of a beast (for
RSG anyway).

Sheremeta - cutsie/clap along Omelianchik rip off bird music that just didn't
work for this blooby little kid ... let's just say she doesn't exactly scream
"gifted" to me but the judges disagreed placing her second with a 9.812.
Front thru to tuck full-in ... bad Shus ... 1 1/2 thru to 1 1/2 punch front
(which *was* well done and definitely the highlight of the routine) ... very
messy tuck full-in to end

Claudia Presacan (ROM) - Bad disco music, "dance" that would make Christie
Phillips blush ... Yep, here's our winner ... uh-huh and I bet she's "14"
too. Tuck full-in ... front full to punch front ... bad Bo jump ... so-so
triple to end ... 9.85

Later All,
Susan
stobchatay@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 20:44:59 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: '94 Women's Jr. Euros

Are the Russian girls mentioned (Lebedeva & Grosheva) old enough for
Dortmund?

Also, how many of the Jr. Romanians do you think will magically turn 15
between May and November?

>Yep, here's our winner ... uh-huh and I bet she's "14"
too.

At least it's a change from them all being "15"

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 22:02:44 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: All-American Girl

Did anyone catch the premiere of 'All-American Girl' tonight?

The 25 year-old main character and her mother are in the middle of an
argument. I didn't tape it, but the conversation went like this:

Margaret: When did we start to fight like this?
Mother: (thinks)...I think it was during the 1984 Olympics.
Margaret: Oh, yeah...the gymnastics competition!
Mother: I was rooting for the Korean girl...
Margaret: and I was rooting for Mary...Lou...RETTON!!!
Mother (snaps): I told you never to say that name in this house again!

I can't begin to describe the brief conversation that follows!

Those of you on the West Coast might want to catch it.

Ad over <g>

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 09:06:18 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.)

Mara wrote:

>Did anyone catch the premiere of 'All-American Girl' tonight?

>The 25 year-old main character and her mother are in the middle of an
>argument. I didn't tape it, but the conversation went like this:

>Margaret: When did we start to fight like this?
>Mother: (thinks)...I think it was during the 1984 Olympics.
>Margaret: Oh, yeah...the gymnastics competition!
>Mother: I was rooting for the Korean girl...
>Margaret: and I was rooting for Mary...Lou...RETTON!!!
>Mother (snaps): I told you never to say that name in this house again!

I caught the show myself; the exchange emitted a real laugh from me,
with an "oh no...." added in for good measure.

BTW- Gymnastics also got about 5 seconds of mention when the Sports
Illustrated Special last night showed footage of Olga Korbut. She was
chosen as one of the 40 people who most influenced sports in the last
40 years. Any comments on the choice?

Connie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 09:52:42 EDT
From: ***@eos.ncsu.edu
Subject: All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.)

> BTW- Gymnastics also got about 5 seconds of mention when the Sports
> Illustrated Special last night showed footage of Olga Korbut. She was
> chosen as one of the 40 people who most influenced sports in the last
> 40 years. Any comments on the choice?
>
> Connie
>

I think she was #26 on the list of the 40 most influential folks. You
would think that Mary Lou would have been on the list somewhere.

--Brent

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 15:17:13 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.)

>> BTW- Gymnastics also got about 5 seconds of mention when the Sports
>> Illustrated Special last night showed footage of Olga Korbut. She was
>> chosen as one of the 40 people who most influenced sports in the last
>> 40 years. Any comments on the choice?
>>
>> Connie
>>
>I think she was #26 on the list of the 40 most influential folks. You
>would think that Mary Lou would have been on the list somewhere.

Only if the list was about the 40 most influential people in America,
then yes Id expect her to be in it somewhere, otherwise if it was just a
list of the most influential people in sport worldwide, then I wouldnt
expect her to be in that list.

Clive

ITFC -Were not boring anywmore

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 12:05:35 +1000
From: ***@pharm.med.upenn.edu
Subject: All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.)

>>> BTW- Gymnastics also got about 5 seconds of mention when the Sports
>>> Illustrated Special last night showed footage of Olga Korbut. She was
>>> chosen as one of the 40 people who most influenced sports in the last
>>> 40 years. Any comments on the choice?
>>>
>>> Connie
>>>
>>I think she was #26 on the list of the 40 most influential folks. You
>>would think that Mary Lou would have been on the list somewhere.
>
>Only if the list was about the 40 most influential people in America,
>then yes Id expect her to be in it somewhere, otherwise if it was just a
>list of the most influential people in sport worldwide, then I wouldnt
>expect her to be in that list.
>
>Clive


I have to agree with Clive on that statement -- if you remember back to
women's gymnastics before Olga - the darling - appeared on the scene, the
sport was mostly (not all) posing and dance. There was very little
tumbling and athletics. Olga was young, had tremendous flexability. She
was loved by every person at the '72 olympics - there was a very special
quality about her, she made the women really get noticed. Think about it,
before Olga women's gymnastics was not what people went to see, they went
for the men's - the athleticism. Please don't misinterpret that I am
saying Olga was the one to bring the sport into its own, but she was the
one who the spotlight happened on when women's gymanstics was changing.
There were many other women who were breaking the ground - Olga was the
darling who happened to be in the spotlight for the ushering in. (I say
this because Ludmilla Tresheva (spelling) lovers often had a hard time with
Olga getting so much of the attention).

I don't see Mary Lou having done that much for the world of sports, she did
a lot for US women's gymnastics, but then so did Kathy Rigby, Kim Zimeskal,
Shannon Miller, etc.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 10:26:59 EDT
From: ***@eos.ncsu.edu
Subject: A possible way to get to more gymnastics on TV

I have been reading recently in the Sports pages of newspapers that FOX
once again outbid CBS for televising a sport on broadcast television.
This time FOX beat CBS by $5 million ($155m to $150m) to air National
Hockey League games, starting near the end of this season. Although,
some analysts say FOX is going to lose several million dollars on this
venture. Weird, huh? So, this leaves CBS with golf, tennis, the 1998
Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan, and NCAA sports (specifically
basketball). Maybe if we all wrote to CBS and told them that there are
a lot of gymnastics fans out here in the world, and we would like to see
more gymnastics on TV. Because, look, the Nagano Olympics are 4 years
away and basketball doesn't start until November. And golf and tennis?
Tennis has its exciting moments, but GOLF? My one problem with this is
that I can't find the CBS address. TV Guide usually has addresses as
filler on one of the listings pages, but it's not in this week's issue
or next week's issue, either. So, what do you think?

--Brent

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:17:57 -0400
From: ***@cykick.jvnc.net
Subject: A possible way to get to more gymnastics on TV

Brent writes (in part):

>So, this leaves CBS with golf, tennis, the 1998
>Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan, and NCAA sports (specifically
>basketball).

Although basketball gets the bulk of the air time, the contract gives CBS
rights to all NCAA championships - not only gymnastics, but track & field,
swimming, wrestling, and lacrosse to name a few. Alas, it doesn't state
(except for basketball, I presume) how much time can elapse between
conclusion of actual event and televising highlights... (snicker)

>Maybe if we all wrote to CBS and told them that there are
>a lot of gymnastics fans out here in the world, and we would like to see
>more gymnastics on TV. ...And golf and tennis?
>Tennis has its exciting moments, but GOLF?

Keep in mind that tennis and golf have major sponsors willing to spend the
big bucks on ads. If we can get Chrysler & McDonalds to do more than just
slap a logo on leos, and get some other big $ commitments to USA
Gymnastics, then the matter of increased gymnastics coverage would be a
no-brainer. Sorry to say, cards and letters may well have an impact, but
ads/$ still make the TV world go round.

>My one problem with this is
>that I can't find the CBS address. TV Guide usually has addresses as
>filler on one of the listings pages, but it's not in this week's issue
>or next week's issue, either.

Try this (the old issue of TV Guide I checked didn't have it either):
President, CBS Sports
The CBS Television Network
West 52nd Street, <---I know HQ is on this street (it's known as "Black Rock")
New York, NY 10019

Helena

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 10:08:16 EDT
From: ***@eos.ncsu.edu
Subject: A statement about weight

One of the sports editorials in USA TODAY back on September 2 mentioned
something about gymnastics and weight. It talks about how Christy
Henrich's death brought attention to women's gymnastics and the problem
of eating disorders that some gymnasts have. But the editorial also
says that it is unfair to pick on gymnastics for causing eating
disorders. Just look at all those waif models in women's magazines.
Gymnasts are thin, but some of those poor girls look downright sickly.
Plus, we Americans are compulsive dieters--you can tell that from all
the diet books that come out and all the Jenny Craig and Weightwatchers
commercials on the tube. Gymnasts are small, or petite, or thin, or
whatever word you want to use. But pound-for-pound and
muscle-for-muscle, they are also some of BEST conditioned athletes in
the world. Period.

--Brent

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 03:44:00 UTC
From: ***@genie.geis.com
Subject: Back to basics

With all of this fuss over the Elites and who is doing what to whom, I
am glad that I had a chance to get back to basics last weekend. I judged
level 5's. It was so much fun to see them laugh when they fell, and get
overjoyed when they made it through the beam routine without falling. On
bars, one girl made her glide kip mount for the first time! We all knew it
was the first time because she stopped and looked over at her coach with a
shocked grin as her whole team cheered. After her pause to celebrate, and
figure out what she should do next, she went on to finish in real glory. I
felt so good for her that I think my grin was bigger than hers. I love
doing the level 5 meets because it reminds me that this is what it is all
about - success measured at each individual's level.

Kathleen E.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 11:29:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject: brian301/facts

yes brian you are right,I could have said it nicer ,but so could they,and I
have written to susan,amanda and beth and expressed that to them privately
and I believe we have worked it out ,thanks for your comments!

:) A.D.M. ( A Dynamo Mom )

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 1:24:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: flaming and stuff

Hmmm....

Now that everyone seems offended and has taken sides, why don't
we get down to business and discuss gymnastics?

I will agree that important issues have been raised. And yes, we as
the collective body known as GYMN have the potential to

1) rationally and intelligently discourse on these topics and
2) act upon our findings, either as individuals or as GYMN.

Let us accomplish 1). Please.

What happened to the sport? We all love gymnastics or we would not
be reading these posts. The sport does have some serious issues
that should be addressed. As emotional and personal as these issues
may become, I would entreat GYMN members to write with civility and
respect. Perhaps we can even write about gymnastics again?

I would personally love to see the sport flourish, safely, forever.
I will do what I can to insure that it does.

Julius
Gymnast, Judge, Fanatic

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 14:35:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject: flashjim@by-line/RE:nunno post

Hi Lori, I would like to respond to your post written about jenny t. and her
weight loss....sickly look, etc. ....
I know for a fact that since she has left Karolyis she has gained weight
she may appear thinner but I think it is because she has grown a little.
but you are intitled to your opinion,sickly looking? hummm ,serious maybe,a
very serious child who is very hard on herself ,but I would have to disagree
on the sickly looking part....bela having a program that is Happier? at
least dominquie smiled? well in response to those comments I will say this
bela program is not any different than steves in a lot of ways (imho)they
are both tough programs...there is NO smiling and laughing going on in
training....no FUN workouts.....They Both have very serious training
programs...at the elite level you will not find many training sessions that
the kids are laughing and having a ball.....there thrills come a different
way.....when they are just working skills.....and they get something they
have been working on I have seen them get crazy.....dom smiles because that
is her personalitiy ....jenny has a serious one....even when she was at
karolyis she didn't smile when she messed up.....thats her ....YOu are very
right in what you said about your children and keeping it fun for them...I
feel the same way.....but then who defines FUN?....some people bungie jump
,I think you have to be sick to do that.....I also feel that when my
daughter is not haveing fun at it anymore that its time to move on to
something else......btw my kid was on bars last night till her hands were
burning.......but she came out with a grin from ear to ear.....she's got
her a new dismount......and thats her idea of fun.
forced weigh ins? some of the girls weigh themselves but its not forced.
If I have miss quoted something i am sorry I haven't figured out how to
stick those lines in from one post to another... well good luck to your
children in the coming season..sincerly A.D.M.
Ps.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 12:31:12 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: Gymn netiquette

Fellow Gymners,

Every now and then Gymn gets a little heated and things look like they're
about to get out of control. The nature of the forum is conducive to such
a phenomenon, but it really doesn't have to be that way. When Gymn works, it
works great, enriching our lives and leading us to speak admirably about the
miracles of modern telecommunication. When things get rough it makes me
think very fondly of my recent vacation in the remotest regions of Upstate
New York ;^)

At any rate, please remember that Gymn is, for the most part, self-moderated.
Rachele and I will step in if in our assessment someone has stepped outside
of the bounds of propriety. This contact is usually done through private email.
Aside from that, Gymn is what *you* make it. It can be a friendly place where
people share a love of the sport of gymnastics. People need to fully
appreciate the immediate nature of the medium. To be a civil forum, free from
the pitfalls that plague many a newsgroup, it is *essential* that its members
abide by a few simple rules:

********************* GYMN's NETIQUETTE GUIDELINES ************************

-> If your mail is really directed to just one or two individuals,
please use private email instead of posting to the alias.

-> Make sure you have something to add to the discussion. Look at the
subject line: if your post doesn't really add to the discussion of
this topic, then either don't post or start a new topic. If you
include a previous posting and only add "Yeah, that was funny!", or,
"What a good idea!", your post is probably not essential. Also, please
do not digress from the discussion of gymnastics, which is, after all,
the purpose of Gymn.

-> If your mail includes previous postings, please label the
inclusion with the original author. Always sign your posts. However,
excessively long signatures should be avoided.

-> Catch up with a thread before adding to the discussion. Someone may
have made the same observation you have. Mail sometimes comes out of
order, so just do the best you can.

-> In order to keep the forum friendly, we ask that all members
remember be respectful of others' points of view. It is, of course,
all right to disagree with a person's opinion, but attacking them for
holding it will be considered inappropriate in this forum. Similarly,
we hope to be able to keep the "signal-to-noise" ratio high, so PLEASE
AVOID ALL MANNER OF "FLAMING". This includes statements that could be
considered libelous in nature. Please remember that in computer-
mediated communication, clues such as facial expression, body language
and tone of voice are missing, making it easy to misunderstand
intentions and jokes.

-> *DO NOT* post copyrighted articles on Gymn. This includes retyping
something you saw in the newspaper, forwarding articles from a
newswire, etc. You may, however, quote small parts of the article and
post a short summary of the story to Gymn (with proper reference)
according to the "fair use" clause of copyright law.

Yours in Gymnastics,

George

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Sep 94 3:36:40 PDT
From: ***@cisco.com
Subject: Internet

texx> No, Chops is the guy with the "Welcome to the internet, now go home"
shirt.

Gee. After a month of pretty much ignoring the gymn mail, I read a digest
only to find my name being taken in vain. I'll remind texx that the back
of the shirt says "...And login", referring to the fact that my work
involves creating devices to access the Internet and other networks
"remotely", as in, from your house. And I can finally wear the shirt
without the "censored" sticker over the all-too-informative part numbers,
now that the products have been announced at interop (this week!)

[texx includes a bunch of qualitatively correct but factually not-so-hot
info about the origin of Internet and UseNet and such.]

[Dan rebutts somewhat over-zealously: (texx) ...the growth of UNIX,
which in turn caused the creation of the INTERNET as we know it...
(dan) UNIX did not cause the creation of the Internet...]

I'm afraid that I have to agree with Texx here. While UNIX did NOT cause the
creation of the Internet, it was probably largely responsible for the creation
of the internet AS WE KNOW IT. The unix applications like News make up the
majority of Internet traffic these days, and the semi-cooperative anarchy that
created usenet and uucp mail has carried over into the way that current
Internet users view the network and how it should be run.

UseNet, Internet, and Bitnet are different types of "infrastructure" over
which you can run useful network applications like electronic mail, News,
file transfers, and so on. If you think about the often-used "information
superhighway" analogy a bit, you'll realize that a highway, by itself, doesn't
actually DO anything. You still need cars, trucks, and so on to move stuff.
You still need products to ship, places to visit, pizza places, and a method
of paying for stuff that gets shipped to you, and for the roads themselves.
Internet, Bitnet, and Usenet are three different "brands" of road, so to
speak. Bitnet is IBM mainframe based, and uses IBM's "Remote job entry"
protocols to do other things as well. Usenet uses mostly dial-up phone
connections and "Unix-to-Unix Copy Protocol" (UUCP). And "Internet" refers
to just about anything that speaks TCP/IP (as dan mentioned) to each other.
(There is a lot of overlap here - for example, Usenet and Bitnet can both
work OVER internet as the communications path.)

> The real point of discussion was overhead of the Internet. I thought
> it was a system maintained by user fees or some such arrangement, but
> others at work think that AT&T is making tons of bucks on the
> long-distance lines that connect the computers. Can you fill me in?

AT&T, MCI, and others are making "tons of bucks" on (basically) leasing the
wire that is used to connect Internet (and other) computers to each other.
Cisco (and yours truly), and others are making "tons of bucks" selling the
boxes that go on the ends of those wires. PSI, CerfNet, and others are
making "tons of bucks" paying for these parts, and selling "internet service"
to companies and individuals. Companies are SAVING "tons of bucks" by sending
data cross-country over the internet instead off flying people around, not to
mention being able to contact their customers, suppliers, and other info on
the net. It's what them negotiators call a "win-win" situation.

So who pays for it all? Well, the government pays for some of it, especially
educational institutions and the like. The current administration apparently
wants to pay for a lot more of it, but this is a hotly contested issues.
Private companies are doing better-than-break-even selling internet-style
service without government intervention, and they don't want regulated to
death. At the moment, I'd say it works sorta like the phone system. Large
customers who can afford to pay, and government spending end up subsidizing
the "small" customers, who can then use the network for nominal or zero cost.
(This is likely to change, but few people agree how...)


(dan) The evolution of personal computers is the driving force behind
the explosive growth of the Internet and anyone who uses raw UNIX is
light years behind the times (relatively speaking!).

I have to disagree with Dan, sort of. What's driving the explosive growth of
the Internet is the realization by commercial companies that data has power,
and computer networks can save money. This in turn may be driven by every
employee having a "personal" computer on their desk, but "home" personal
computers are a minor part of internet growth so far, in terms of $$$. (eg,
the "aol invasion" is small potatoes compared to the linking in of the entire
networked scandanavian countries, or the German "Bundestpost") Elegant
access programs are available for unix too...


We now return you to gymnastics...

Chops

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: Internet questions

I would like to apologize to Dan and any others misled by my post.
I thought I said that the USENET was caused by UNIX news.
Im a tad braindead from bouncign back and forth between day shift and nights.
I kinda glanced over the details on the early days of ARPA for brevity sake.
UNIX's explosive growth influenced the INTERNET as we know it today.
I did not mean to say that the INTERNET is all UNIX.
Perhaps my try to keep the size of the post down made things unclear.
You must agree that it was huge as it was.
I did not go far into some of the other things Dan mentioned for brevity as
well.

What spawned the entire post was the simultaneous questions of several people
about what the hardware on INTERNET and on USENET was.

We can go into SLIP PPP GOPHER FTP WWW ARCHIE and many other things as well
but I fear we should do it later and get back to gymn. Otherwise our list
manaders will put itching powder in our chalk !

Those of you wishing to bat around "techie stuff" lets do it by private mail,
OK?

-texx

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 20:00:07 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Karolyi Interview

This interview with Karolyi was in the Dallas Morning News on Sunday 11
September. Because I do not remember the exact rules regarding presenting
articles, I will just highlight what I found interesting.

Re: Zmeskal's - "How far are we going to get? Who knows? But she wants to
try, and I feel like I have to help her. I wouldn't do it for anybody
else...I don't want to get back to the politics, the nightmares, all that
stuff from 1992."

Re: Bouguinskaya - "There's a new development .... is going to join our
training camp. She's due to arrive in mid-September"

"Is it possible that she could compete for the United States in 1996?" - "An
attorney is working on ... her eligibility to be an American competitor. It
looks like in a few months she can get her citizenship......"

Re: Okino - It appears that she is also working out in Houston. "Betty
doesn't know what she wants to do yet. She wants to prepare for college or
maybe for (gymn) shows.....But Kim wants to sturdily and strongly. Svetlana
wants to sturdily and strongly, and she says there is no question about her
intentions.

Re: Alexandrov - "I needed a hand and an expert hand. ... I actually hired
him because of the project with Kim."

"So you have a new coach and a new gym, too" - "Yes....I needed a few
things...The most important thing was... outfitting a new gym. These
guys...won't fit into a regular gym schedule...I wont need to spend hours and
hours on compulsories...I will have to spend hours and hurs upgrading the
difficulty level... That's why I wanted to set up a special gym for them."

Compares what Zmeskal wants to Katarina Witt's comeback last winter. Talks
about doing it for herself and not just the winning or losing aspect.

Overall, it was a good interview, most of which is recapped here. I hope I
didn't overstep any bounds in my quotes.

Debbie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 09:14:18 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Karolyi Interview

An article in the Atlanta Constitutional appeared during the same period
(Sept.) mentioning that Bela got gored by one of his prized animals on
his "gluteus maximus" in June.

Any Bela bashers out there reading this at work, please emit hysterical
laughter in private.....:-).

A little levity from,

Connie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 23:31:58 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Libelous Gymn Talk

To All:
Texx brought up his assertion that Gymn is like a public forum where a
coach's techniques and programs can be discussed and critiqued, good or bad.
He's right, but that was not the point of my previous note about libel.
You can always critique someone, but you cannot make unfounded accusations.
Period. That's illegal.
Texx also made the assertion that the law regarding the Internet is
fuzzy. No, it is not. There have already been several lawsuits won in court
over libel on the Internet. Writing on the Internet to a group -- such as
Gymn -- is the same as writing up something on a pamphlet and handing it out
on a street corner.
If what you have in that pamphlet -- or what you have in your post -- has
unfounded accusations, you have committed libel. And the courts have upheld
that you can be sued.
--- Ronald

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 17:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@netcom.com
Subject: Libelous Gymn Talk

>
> To All:
> Texx brought up his assertion that Gymn is like a public forum where a
> coach's techniques and programs can be discussed and critiqued, good or bad.
> He's right, but that was not the point of my previous note about libel.
> You can always critique someone, but you cannot make unfounded accusations.
> Period. That's illegal.
> Texx also made the assertion that the law regarding the Internet is
> fuzzy. No, it is not. There have already been several lawsuits won in court
> over libel on the Internet. Writing on the Internet to a group -- such as
> Gymn -- is the same as writing up something on a pamphlet and handing it out
> on a street corner.
> If what you have in that pamphlet -- or what you have in your post -- has
> unfounded accusations, you have committed libel. And the courts have upheld
> that you can be sued.
> --- Ronald

ARGH!
[Expletive deleted]

Ron has missed in his paraphrasing of what I said.
What I said was that there are a couple interpretations on the net.
Let me clarify.
Making remarks abvout a coach is liek playing Russian Roulette.
Ron is right that there have been some successful libel suits on the net
but there have been some that didnt make it either.
Yes the law IS still fuzzy, but I would not recomend tempting fate.

I said that some view the net as a paper subject to suits and others view it as
someone saying their opinion on the streetcorner, as a place of public assembly.

It all boils down to what "Dirty Harry Calahan" once said;
"Feel lucky today, PUNK ?"

I will agree with Ron as far as saying that tyou are taking your life into your
hands when you take potshots at people on the net. Time was you could get away
with murder here because no one knew about this place. Times have changed.
"Send me e-mail" has replaced "Lets do lunch". You gotta be careful here almost
as much as at work. Next thing you know they'll ban alt.tasteless !
UGH!

Now lets get back to how we are gonna monkeywrench the NCAA attempts to unplug
mens gymn, OK ?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 12:49:17 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: Mary Lou on TV

Did anyone else see Mary Lou hosting Caroline's Comedy Hour on A&E
a month or so back? She did standing back tucks while the audience
cheered, and then said, "Oh I guess there aren't any Russian judges out
there!" Ha ha....


Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:33:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: my Dynamo post

Dear everyone,
Does anyone still have a copy of the Dynamo post I wrote (I think about a
month ago) - in any case, the one that's involved in the controversy? I deleted
it, but now need a copy of it so I can try to straighten some things out. So if
anyone still has that post, please forward it to me. Thanks!!! :)

Beth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 01:30:33 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Nunnnnno

Beth, Beth, Beth

Don't get down on yourself so quickly. Your opinion is just as valid as the
next person's.

The whole purpose of forums like this is to allow people who don't have
public opinions to voice their opinions to the masses. No matter how
ridiculous the opinion is, you should be allowed and encouraged to voice it.

Sometimes newcomers to the forum (I can remember when I first joined in) get
a little crazy about the freewheeling nature of Gymn. And it all seems so
personal!!!!

ATL1996 has an opinion too!

Let's not start apologizing for outrageous opinions. Part of what makes Gymn
work is that people like Texx and Susan and you can all communicate and shout
and argue, etc....

If we can't go wild in Gymn, then let's shut off our computers.

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 09:02:42 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Nunno

Forward of a message that didn't make it to all of Gymn.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Nunno
Date: 94-09-12 01:24:17 EDT
From: Esthig
To: Gimnasta

Gimnasta said: I didn't lose my childhood; I got a better one. I would never
trade mine for my peers', and it wasn't a matter
of wanting to "win". There are plenty of things to win at in "normal" life.

To use a quote the origin of which I don't remember at the moment, "There is
no normal life. There's just life."

Adriana

=========
Thank you. This is something I've felt for a very long time, about young
athletes, young stars, and anyone who has had success at an early age at an
endeavor that is outside the "norm". People always focus on what is "lost"
i.e, "They don't get to go to their high school proms." (Although apparently
both Amanda Borden and Dominque Dawes did!) They don't focus on what the
kids *gained*: confidence, pride in knowing they fought hard for something
and achieved it, world travel, knowledge (albeit of a focused nature) of
something that others know relatively little about, dedication,
concentration, responsibility...a whole host of bonuses, both personal and
"professional". There are most certainly costs, and sometimes those costs
are *not* worth the price. But very often that is due to the adults in that
child's life, and not because of the life itself. Most of the time, the
benefits add greatly to a child's future life in ways that are far more
significant than having dated in high school or held down a job at
McDonald's.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 11:37 PDT
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Nunno etc.

I really don't think Nunno or his "gymnasts" are actually worth all this
discussion and effort. All I can say is that he proved that cloning works
as each of the girls at goodwill were bad knockoffs of Shannon. It was
like those Ukranian easter dolls where you open one up and out comes one a
little smaller and with less artistic ability. Then out came Marianna
Webster and I thought that had to be the last of them. Of course I was
wrong, out came an even smaller less artistic one. Anyway, my point is
that if little Jennie Thompson is unhappy, and she doesn't do anything
to make her situation better, its not our problem.

Lets move on to something else.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 23:11:37 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Outrageous Opinions (was Re: Nunnnnno)

>Let's not start apologizing for outrageous opinions. Part of what makes Gymn
work is that people like Texx and Susan and you can all communicate and shout
and argue, etc....

And the best part of it is we aren't all in the same room shouting at each
other (with dangerous objects within reach)!!!

*********
Speaking of Outrageous Opinions, I think the US team (even without Shannon)
*will* be on the medal stand in Dortmund, perhaps as high as Silver.

Also speaking of outrageous opinions, what's the deal with China possibly
boycotting Asian Games (does anyone have any details)? Now that's
outrageous. Taiwan exists, Mr. Deng. Get over it.

Thoughts?

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 21:44:09 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: Outrageous Opinions (was Re: Nunnnnno)

> Also speaking of outrageous opinions, what's the deal with China possibly
> boycotting Asian Games (does anyone have any details)? Now that's
> outrageous. Taiwan exists, Mr. Deng. Get over it.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Mara

I have not heard this! Another sign the Apocalypse is upon us...
(are you writing this down Mara? :-))
China *lives* for the Asian Games... When will their top athletes
get to compete? There's always that worlds thing... :-)

Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 14:37:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU
Subject: Recent Gymn Events

Wow! The going has been hot and heavy on here the past 24 hours.
Let me just say these things:
- While I am not that great a Nunno fan, though I have never meet them
in person, talked to a disgruntled parent, or had any personal contact with
anyone around him whatsoever, I think it is unfair to bash his establishment
for weigh-ins. Many competitive gymns around the country do the exact same
thing. While most gymnasts you see on television are not having weight
problems, it is dangerous for a female gymnast, especially once she hits
puberty, to carry extra weight from bodyfat and still endure the tough workouts
that team gymnasts go through to be in competitive form. It causes extra stress
on the joints and can amplify the consequences of injury.
From what I've seen, Nunno's kids as a rule are very intense. They're
competing. It's what they do. Romanian kids tend to be this way as well, and I
don't see any of y'all proposing to fly in to Deva and storming the gym there.
As long as they have fun outside of the gym and learn the difference between
in-gym life and having fun-and-joking-around life, then I don't see too much
the matter.If the Dynamo gym had a closed-workout policy, then one could be
very suspicious.
By the way, Dominique M. has always had a very outgoing, pleasant,
gregarious manner, sort of like Mary Lou Retton. Nadia and Kim Z. were always
very inward and focused. All of them trained under the same coach.
I think that, in time, as Nunno produces more national team gymnasts,
we'll start to see more of a range of personalities, body-types, etc. I think
it is very quick to judge his establishment at this point in time.
--Cara
P.S. I'll send info on Lea Carver soon!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 12:05:05 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: THE FACTS!

Certainly, Beth has an extremely valid point in stating that criticism of
the sort posted in THE FACTS be e-mailed directly to the person involved.
Even then the wording needn't be so obviously hostile.

Brian's response pointing out the inconcruity of using such critical language
to criticize critical language should be well heeded by all.

Lastly, the written word can be a beautiful thing, but it can also give
a negative impression on whoever is sending messages without thought and
in anger or vindictiveness. This applies to any form of writing.

Enough "soap-box" chatter on my part.

Connie

------------------------------

End of gymn Digest
******************************