gymn Digest Mon, 22 Aug 94 Volume 3 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:

address? (2 msgs)
Another English victory in Commonwealth
Bela and Training
Commonwealth reflections
Commonwealth Womens AA
Eating, Workouts In NCAA
English Victory in Commonwealth!!
Fwd: Re: training of gymn...
Fwd: Re: training of gymnasts
I'm Going To Nationals
Just a quickie
Nationals poll (2 msgs)
RE: Shannon's Auto.
r Watson
Shannon's autograph
Trivia Questions #20 - Worlds' Team Comp. (1A/1B)

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 03:51:00 UTC
From: ***@genie.geis.com
Subject:

Ben Corr mentioned that "the scores in collegiate gymnastics are so
inflated, that many judges refuse to judge college meets."
As a woman who does judge college meets, I would like to put in my 2
cents worth. When Ben was coaching, the selection process for Nationals was
such that there was a lot of pressure on judges to "loosen up the scores
like they do in the ______ region." Coaches were throwing temper tantrums
right and left. There were pre-meet lectures to give the kids a break...
There were some judges that refused to take college meets. Others cared
more about the kids and would judge anyway.
Then the selections system changed. Only the Regional meet counted for
qualifying to Nationals. The pressure during the preliminary competitions
was lifted. With a few exceptions, the temper tantrums stopped. Judges
just scored the routines. I for one feel that I do not judge more loosely
at college meets than at club meets. I find that often the collegiate level
(Div. 1) of execution far exceeds club level. Where execution falters, so
do the scores. The leaps are usually stretched to 180 and the turns are on
toe and complete. there is often very good execution on bars and beam. The
one flaw might be the tumbling on floor. But, it is still better than most
club gymnasts. Also, the girls are often stretching the limits of the 1B
code, often performing routines that exceed the requirements.
I would like to see Div. 1 change to Comp. II rules. It would help to
differentiate the routines with superior difficulty from those that meet the
requirements, but are not as difficult as others in the same meet. I want
to see R-A-N-G-E with these scores. Taking a couple of tenths in
composition doesn't cut it.
Okay. That is my 2 cents.

Kathy E.

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 17:11:32 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: address?

I was woundering if anyone had any adresses of gymnast (i.e.-, Kim, Dom.,
Kerri) I would love to write them.
flips,
Melissa

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 18:59:53 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: address?

Try looking at "IG" for club addresses (they publish them every couple months
and always with interviews) or send letter to gymnasts care of the USAG and
they will foreward them. This rule holds true for either past or present
gymnasts. Most foreign gymnasts can be reached through their federation as
well but replies are far from guarenteed (see "IG" for foreign federation
addresses as well.)

USA Gymnastics
Pan Am Plaza
#300 201 S Capitol
Indianapolis, IN 46225

Susan

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 22:25:09 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Another English victory in Commonwealth

Commonwealth Games 1994, Victoria, Canada:

Mens Individual All-Around Results:

1. Neil Thomas (ENG) 55.950
2. Brennon Dowrick (AUS) 55.525
3. Peter Hogan (AUS) 54.950
4. Lee McDermott (ENG) 54.800
5. Richard Ikeda (CAN) 54.725
6. Kristan Burley (CAN) 54.575
7. Bret Hudson (AUS) 54.500
8. Alan Nolet (CAN) 54.200

Good ol' Neil won it with a 0.425 margin over his nearest rival Brennon
Dowrick to bring home England our second gymnastics gold medal in these
championships, despite stepping out of the area in his floor exercise.
There was no other notable mistakes and he won it quite comfortably.

The Womens AA will be on later today.

Sherwin

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 10:39:43 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Bela and Training

David,
Of course the coach cannot be totally exhonerated. The point is that
saying Bela and other coaches' training methods destroy kids or are a form of
child abuse due to the fact that they cause eating disorders is wrong. While
its definitely possible that some coaches might cause severe emotional
problems in a child, its ridiculous to say that if a child has emotional
problems its absolutely and soley the coaches fault. That's what I see alot
of people doing, mostly just the media and the likes, but occasionally
amongst educated people. So far every public reply I've gotten to that note
have been nitpicking at little points, and either just agreeing with and/or
choosing to ignore or just plain missing the real point I wanted to make
here. MIke

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 11:41:03 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Commonwealth reflections

Bits from the UK "The Daily Telegraph" newspaper on the English womens team
victory in the Commonwealth Games:

- Sleep was impossible for the waifs who had just become England's most
unlikely gold medallists.

- Vincent Walduck, coach of the team who had stunned the gymnastics world
by beating Canada and Australia, was unable to contain his tears. The
teenagers under his tutelage, trapped in the television arc lights,
remained remarkably composed.

- Captain Jackie Brady, at 18 assigned the role of elder stateswoman,
theatrically mourned the loss of her mascot, a toy rabbit named Llama.

- [on Reeder] Bright-eyed and blonde-haired, she possesses an infectious
giggle and a precocious talent. Her tiny frame - she is 4ft 6in tall and
weighs 5st 1lb - completes the stereotype of a sport populated by poppets.

- "We didn't expect to win", she [Annika Reeder] conceded, in an oft-
repeated sound bite. "We were nervous to begin with, but the nerves went
as soon as we started. It's great. Everyone is saying well done. We feel
happy, joyful."

- Yet the English team exulted in the purity of their ambitions. Their
innocence was incandescent. It was impossible not to share their joy. As
they assembled nosily near the entrance to the village passers-by smiled
with them, instinctively.

- "This is all good fun, you know." she [Jackie Brady] stressed.

- Reeder, whose dexterity as a make-up artist testifies to the influence
of her mother, a beauty therapist, won the floor exercise [this is in team
comp]. Just as Brady is fond of making leotards, her hobby is cross-stitch
sewing.

- They are nice, normal girls. That, rather than any gold medal, is the
greatest advertisement for their sport.

The article comes with a nice big (17cm by 17cm) photo of the English girls
holding their medals.


Another bit on the mens AA event:

- [Neil] Thomas, who carried his country's flag in the opening ceremony,
performed with superb consistency to capture the individual all-around
title by a comfortable margin from the Australians Brennon Dowrick and
Peter Hogan.

- A jubilant Thomas described his victory as the high point of his career,
ranking it above the two silver medals he won in the World Championships.
"This has got to be the highlight," he said. "I feel very emotional. This
is a title I have won and not just a position and that makes a big
difference."


Sherwin

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 1:38:19 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Commonwealth Womens AA

Commonwealth Games, Victoria, Canada

Womens Individual All-Around Results:

1. Stella Umeh (CAN) 38.400
2. Rebecca Stoyel (AUS) 38.057
3. Zita Lusack (ENG) 37.725

Stella Umeh was favourite to take the title and despite a hesitant
start she improved her scores as the competition went on and finishing
off with a high 9.725 on bars. The early leader, Sonia Lawrence from
Wales who led in the first two rotations, had a bad beam in the end and
finished only 9th. The leading challenger from Australia was Rebecca
Stoyel after Joanna Hughes pulled out because of an injury (probably
her old injury from Worlds'94 not cleared?), and probably the second
favourite for this title Ruth Moniz had disaster on her first two pieces
of apparatus. Stoyel also had a good score on bars with a 9.700 and
claimed the silver. Zita Lusack of England snatched the bronze away from
Salli Wills of Australia in the last rotation when she got 9.625 for her
couple of 1/2-twist Yurchenko vaults. Other English competitors Jackie
Brady was sixth and Karin Szymko was seventh. Szymko was harshly marked
for her beam (only 9.275 with no clear errors), and her FX had a step out
(just), but one of her full-twist Yurchenko vaults scored 9.675. Jaime Hill
of Canada looked fast and good but had a few major errors. Heidi Oosthuizen
of South Africa had triple twists and three whips to double twists on floor,
but her score for that was only in the 8.9s!

The apparatus finals for both men and women will both be on tomorrow.

Sherwin

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 14:18:52 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Eating, Workouts In NCAA

To All:
I have been reading with much interest all the recent comments about
anorexia and the like on the NCAA and elite level. The NCAA comments
particularly caught my attention and opened my eyes somewhat.
But I do want to pass on what I am seeing in the upper-level NCAA teams,
particularly in the SEC.
The coaches are extremely knowledgeable about nutrition, and the teams, in
fact, have a nutrition specialist who visits with the teams each week. On top
of that, I know that Florida, at least, has a wall where gymnasts can get
drinks and fresh fruit during workouts. And they use it.
But there is another trend in the upper-level NCAA teams that is
encouraging sensible eating and proper body care, and that trend is
weightlifting. Teams are finding out that gymnasts who lift weights and do
other training are stronger and have more endurance. Rememer the University
of Utah poster two years ago? Where everybody was in muscle poses? Well, that
is the trend. Gymnasts may actually be gaining some weight (mostly muscle)
just so they can have a little bit of the bulk to have muscles.
Look at some of the most dominant NCAA gymnasts in the past three years:
Missy Marlowe, Heather Stepp and Jenny Hansen. They are all beasts with great
muscles. Everything about their routines was dynamic and sensational.
This is a trend I like, because it is encouraging gymnasts to go away
from the skinny look and aim for a more healthy look. And in the process,
their gymnastics looks better, too.
There were also comments on Gymn about the workouts not being structured
in the NCAA. Again, I can only speak for the upper level teams when I say the
workouts are very structured. In fact, many teams have charts that must be
followed, charts that include the exact number of routines that must be
completed on each event before a gymnast can move on to the next one.
And as far as workout times are concerned, you just can't walk into the
gym whenever you want to practice. You better be there at the scheduled
workout times or you will be disciplined. Colleges are allowed to practice a
gymnast up to 20 hours a week, and believe you me, they take advtange of
that. It's not all gymnastics all the time, either. Some of that is
weightlifting, other times it's jogging and sometimes it's good ol' fashion
swiming or aerobics.
Sooooo, while anorexia and the like still exists in the NCAA, I think
we're seeing a big turn away from that. Both the coaches and the gymnasts are
becoming smarter.
-- Ronald Dupont, Jr. in Gainesville, Florida

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 10:24:55 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: English Victory in Commonwealth!!

Hurrah, we are the best, certainly some surprise results at the
Commonwealth Games this year, ah its nice I like the Commonwealth Games
we actually win things for a change, we actually look good.

>Stacey Galloway (CAN) injured her kneecap area (?) during her bars in the third
>rotation and had to withdraw from the rest of the competition. She was in tears
>(understandably) and was in crutches by the end of the competition.

According to the 8 page yes 8 page summary on ceefax she dislocated her
kneecap, OUCH!!!!! while warming up on a piece of appratus but valiantly
carried on.

>Stella Umeh (CAN) looked very good and is odds on favourite for the All-Around
>title.

Hmm oh well cant be brilliant at everything can we ;) at least we still got
a bronze from that and Neil wining a gold and not forgetting
Lee McDermott finishing fourth.

Hope to hear a few more bars from Land of Hope and Glory before the
competitions end.

Clive

9/57 I was there, I saw it, were gonna win the Ashes.

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 11:02:50 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: training of gymn...

So the Chinese have this amazing training system? Tell me, how often do
those kids at the training centers get home? How much literally parental
influence to those coaches have on their kids?
How can I say the ends justify the means?! I went out of my way to point out
that I wasn't trying to say that at all. You can dislike everything about
the RUmanian/US and Soviet system, but you can't argue the fact that they
create more succesful gymnasts more frequently than any other method. When
you're arguing what system creates the most succesful gymnasts, there's no
room for opinion. Alot of people love Chinese gymnastics and think China
creates the worlds most beautiful gymnasts, that's opinion. The simple point
that at major competitions like the Olympics, Worlds, etc, the last few
(nearly 2 decades now) years were pretty much dominated by this system, and
that David, is fact. My whole note, was a response to the article posted
which suggested that Bela just destroyed children. The simple fact is that
that when the proper parental support is present and the child truly wants to
be there, wants to work to be great, Karolyi's training can make them a
champion. Doesn't anyone think its unusual that the only athletes attacking
Bela are those who didn't last with him or win under him? I'm not arguing
that there are sone questionable, intense tactics that some children can't
handle within Bela's system. I'm pointing out that many, many kids succeed
under Bela and I think there are many factors outside of the gym that can
have a tremedous effect on what becomes of a child in this system. Ask Kim
Zmeskal what she thinks about Bela's methods. I have a very good friend who
trained as an elite with Bela just 2 years ago. She confirmed to me that the
verbal abuse was totally true and did go on, and added that Bela loved the
girls too much to ever let anything happen to them and that if eating
disorders were oresent he wasn't aware of it. I'll tel you, if I was someone
who had trained unfer Bela and worked very hard through good times and bad,
but was there by choice, no matter how I did in compettion someone telling
the media that my coach was abusing me would piss me off. This is getting
ridiculous because we're only attacking little supporting points and are
getting off track of the main issue, I really don't think we're that far off
in disagreement, so I'll just end it here. Mike

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 23:27:01 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: training of gymnasts

> I am absolutely certain neither you nor anyone else would argue
>the fact that Karolyi's coaching methods also build better gymnasts than
>anyone else's.

Absolutely I would argue that fact! There is more than one bloody way to
create a world class gymnast. I cannot speak for every coach in every gym,
but I will sure as heck tell you that the Chinese don't treat their gymnasts
the way Karolyi does. I have been to city gyms, provincial gyms, and the
National Gym in Beijing and I have watched the coaches, talked to the
athletes, talked to the coaches, and they all agree that you can't bully a
child into excellence. Either they have the will to go all the way
themselves, or they don't. The coaches are strict and demanding, but they
neither belittle or humiliate, and they certainly don't tell their gymnasts
that they are FAT!

Wake up and take a look at the coaching styles of the men and women who
create champions outside of Romania and the U.S., and you will find a wide
variety of successful coaching styles.

Emulate Bela's style and you are begging for more cases like Christy's. The
fact is it will work with some kids and make emotional wrecks out of the
rest.

And even if Bela's style were the only successful or most successful style in
the world, how can you possibly suggest that the ends justify the means?

As to your point that nobody holds a gun to a parents head and makes him or
her send a child to Karolyi, I will grant that. My point is that parents need
to be more careful about what a coach is saying to or doing to a child, and
not simply turn the child over to a person who has a 33% or better chance of
permanently damaging that child. I am not calling on Bela to change. I simply
rant about him on this forum so people will know what goes on and will make
informed choices before sending their children to a man whose training
methods are questioned by others in the field.

At any rate, as far as I am concerned, yelling at or abusing any child in a
non-parental context is uncalled for. There are other, better ways of
creating champions. Bela should get it through his head that he is no longer
in Romania, and some of his ways have to change. But, alas, success justifies
so many wrongs in the world...

David

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 14:18:32 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: I'm Going To Nationals

To All:
I and Gymn member Raul are going to nationals in Nashville. I'll
be staying at the Best Western Metro Inn ($32 a night), which is about 2
miles from the auditorium.
Raul, a native of Puerto Rico, has promised to teach all those interested
how to salsa Saturday night after the final session. Hopefully, we'll be able
to find a dance place that doesn't play country. (laughing)
Any takers?
-- Ronald

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 17:19:40 -0400
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject: Just a quickie

Was watching the NBC coverage of the Hilton games (currently calling LD
across the coutnry to access the net, am rushing this) and noted that I
got really seasick on the high basr coverage, the camera jerked up and down
like crazy ;). Anyhow, having fun on vacation, see you all soon.

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 15:19:08 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Nationals poll

Who do you guys think will win the AA and the four ef's? The AA should go to
Shannon w/o any problems as should vault. Bars will be the biggest
competition with Shannon, Dom, Kerri(if she's there), Larissa, Amanda and
Doni all having gold caliber routines. My pick here is probably Doni. She
has a great bar routine and she'll probably come out on top. Balance Beam
will probably go to Shannon. They are dying to award her with a National
title on this event and she, especially after last year, is dying to get one.
She is the World Champion here so, she's my pick. Floor should be another
great battle with Shannon, Dom, Kerri(again if she's there), Amanda and
Jennie Thompson. This should most likely go to Dom if she can stay in bounds
unlike last year.---Brian

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 15:44:23 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Nationals poll

>Doni all having gold caliber routines. My pick here is probably Doni.<

Excuse me but while Doni does have a difficult routine she is only a Jr.

Susan

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 14:21:20 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: RE: Shannon's Auto.

Stobchay-

I'm not putting down Shannon because her auto. was somewhat messy. The fact
is that I received it from someone online, and was wondering if others had
autographs like mine. Don't get me wrong, I praise Shannon for answering so
many requests for autographs, and letters. I feel extremely lucky to have
one!

Jessica

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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 12:24:21 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: r Watson

As most of you know by now I am a crazed dog about errors on gymn about TV
coverage. Our colleague rWatson writes:

>Was watching the NBC coverage of the Hilton games . . . . and >noted that I
got really seasick on the high basr coverage, the >camera jerked up and down
like crazy ;)

NBC has never covered the Hilton Games.

David

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 23:00:02 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Shannon's autograph

I too received a sloppy letter, About 5 or 6 months ago, I wrote a letter to
Shannon, and since no reply came I wrote her another one and this time she
answered me!! She sent me a postcard that was extremely messy but I was
so-o-o-o happy I really didn't care. Iwas so that excited and to be honest
surprised that she had taken time to write me back. I had heard in interviews
that she answered every piece of fan mail in person I am hoping this is still
true.
Allison

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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 22:18:49 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Trivia Questions #20 - Worlds' Team Comp. (1A/1B)

The topic is Team Competition at World Championships (comp 1A & 1B)

A thank you for questions below: Brian (Marcus1996) #1 & #2; Susan
(stobchatay) #3 & Adriana (Gimnasta) #4 - #7.

1. What women's team had the largest drop in position from compulsories to
optionals in the 1992 Olympic Games? Where did they finish in compulsories
and overall?

2. In how many (and which) Worlds since 1966 did the Soviets not win the
Team Gold?

3. Which reigning European Champion and AA favorite was carried off the
floor (and out of the competition) in '87 after the last event of the team
competition?

4. Which team has had the greatest number of 10's contribute to its team
score in a single Olympics, which year, and how many?

5. Only 2 gymnasts have contributed 20's to their teams: who, what year, and
what events?

6. Who scored the first men's Olympic 10?

7. There have been 9 male gymnasts to achieve a 10 in compulsories in the
Olympics: who, which events, and what years?

8. During which Worlds did the Chinese women lead the Romanians through most
of the compulsory competition, before eventually finishing with the Bronze

9. From 1976 on, which year did the Romanian women not win a Team medal?

10. How many 10s were awarded in Women's compulsories at the 1984 Olympics?

I'll post the answers tommorrow.

Enjoy!

Mara

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End of gymn Digest
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