gymn Digest Fri, 23 Sep 94 Volume 3 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
#1(2) THE FACTS!
'94 Women's Jr. Euros
2000 Olympics (3 msgs)
All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.)
Gogean Profile
Ivan Ivankov profile
list was broken!
Misc. News From the AP
Naming skills
Nunno
Olympics 2000
OLYMPICS IN ATLANTA
Outrageous Opinions (was Re: Nunnnnno)
Pan American Cup (re-send)
Proposed Cable Channel (was Re: Street address for CBS)
re tricks, deductions
Snady Knapp (re-send)
some questions... (4 msgs)
Street address for CBS is 51 W. 52nd St. in NYC
The Stork Cometh (re-send)
Top most important (SI) list (2 msgs)
tricks, deductions
U.S. Nationals

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 01:16:42 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: #1(2) THE FACTS!

***@delphi.com attempted to lay the following upon yours truly:

>(sorry but I don't know your name)

And thank the stars for that!

> I really would hate for someone to be quoting me when I am watching my
>daughter....as it is I have to dub out the sound of my vidio recorder!
>Have you ever hung out in the hotel bar after the compulsories ,the night
>before optionals......oh god that investigating committee who have their
>hands full.......so many clubs and so little time......well enough said
>about that.....Your not on the jury for OJ are you??????????????

Yes, well, you seem to have made your point. My point, which you seem to have
missed entirely in a headlong rush to flame me and some of my fellow gymners,
was that any investigation of ANY coach should be handled discreetly (keep it
out of the press), professionally (ignoring rumor and heresay and a) trying
to determine if any USAG policies have been in fact broken, and b)
documenting any such violations), and legally (i.e., with full respect to the
legal rights of everyone involved.)

I have no idea whether anyone who has been mentioned here online is in fact
guilty of any such violation. It is MHO, however, that at any time that there
is the suggestion of impropriety that endangers the physical or mental
well-being of an athlete, it falls upon the parents to protect their
children, and for the sport to protect the athletes and the sport itself. You
seem to be under the impression that I expected the USAG to investigate every
moan and groan of dissatisfied parents. Far from it. But when a long train of
complaints and reports from third parties suggest that something is
DANGEROUSLY amiss, the USAG is obliged to look into the matter.

I would fully expect any parent to do what is in the best interest of their
children. Certainly the law does. But I also expect the sport to act in the
interest of the athletes, the coaches, and the sport itself by doing what is
in the best interest of the sport.

I am glad you are satisfied with the coaching your child is receiving. It
comes as a great relief to me that it appears that a lot of what we have
heard here is untrue.
But I still contend that there is no room for cruelty or abuse in coaching,
and I would hope that we as a community will root those who practice such
methods, thinking first of the children and last of glory.

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 08:39:01 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: '94 Women's Jr. Euros

>You know Ana Maria Bican (ROM) won this event (9.768 avg.) but I could swear
she did a Yurchenko full and then a Yurchenko double full (both with messy
legs). Two different families rule anyone?<

I don't know how Jr. Europeans is run, but because it is a Junior rather than
a Senior meet, it's entirely possible that they decided to use modified
rules, like using C-II (AA finals) rules in C-III (event finals). That's my
guess.

Adriana

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 20:57:01 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: 2000 Olympics


I want to go to the 2000 Olympics in Melbourne, Austrailia, the summer after
I graduate from high school. Does anyone know the address to the
International Olympic Federation or whatever? I'd like to write for some
info.

Thanks,

Jessica :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 21:45:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@clark.net
Subject: 2000 Olympics

> I want to go to the 2000 Olympics in Melbourne, Austrailia, the summer after
> I graduate from high school. Does anyone know the address to the
> International Olympic Federation or whatever? I'd like to write for some
> info.

As a participant or as an observer? If anyone is planning that trip and
is willing to do a group thing, it sounds good to me, as that'll be after
my 4th year in college (who knows how long college will take ;) - I'd
gladly join in to get airfare, and with things like the Olympics, there
is no such thing as booking too far in advance. Also when it comes to
airfare at that time of year. Maybe if you book 4 years in advance, you
can have 50% off? (or maybe not)

Robert
------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 01:16:31 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: 2000 Olympics

Hi Jessica!

I think it's cool you are already planning to catch the Olympics in 2000.

Unfortunately, if you went to Melbourne, the only Olympic things you would
probably see are the leftovers of the 1956 Games and the televised coverage
of the 2000 games, which are in SYDNEY. ;-)


If you contact the Australian consulate near you, they can provide all of the
information you need. Or try calling the Embassy in Washington. You can get
their number at (202) 555-1212.

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 16:38:16 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: All-American Girl (& Sports Illust.)

Olga Korbut and Mary Lou Retton were mentioned during a brief discussion on
the Sports Illustrated Special (Korbut was on the list, Retton was not).

Whatever happened to N. Comaneci? I suppose total impact on the sporting
world *does* have much to do with personality. Certainly the above mentioned
had it while competing, while Nadia was a purely technical performer and has
had an unfortunate personal life (whether of her own choosing or not) to boot.

Connie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 23:40:54 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: Gogean Profile

"Gina Gogean, A Champion in Transition" by Richard Montaignac,
from the French sports magazine, *L'Equipe*.

(Bad French pun on her name edited out...:-))
<...It is relatively easy to paint the portrait of the newest
European Ladies Gymnastics Champion. She's a seventeen-year old who
possesses a small and charming first name. So charming...
She does not resemble in the least either Russian Svetlana
Xorkina or Dina Kochetkova (both second to her at the 94 Europeans). She
has neither the charm of her teammate, Lavinia Milosovici, nor the
attractive looks of the third Russian, Oksana Fabrichnova. To be brief,
her list of achievements prior to the European Championships this spring
in Sweden did not do her justice, instead, it was her winning performance
there that finally ordained her...
It was her overall techninque, as well as certain aggression on
the beam, that was the subject of a press conference, where she usually
has a tendency to go unnoticed while she quietly observes the reporters
who rapidly fire questions at her. She prefers to have her coach speak
for her.
A young girl with profound convictions buried within, Gina does
not possess any one outstanding trait. However, she lives with an
education system that is perhaps hindering her from coming out of the
obscur world of her daydreams.
"Gina is a regular girl who never commits any errors," explains her
Romanian coach, Octavian Bel, from underneath his moustache. "While I'll
admit" (and Gina suddenly speaks up and agrees) "that the content of her
routines are not the most difficult, most notably in comparison with those
of her teammate, Lavinia Milosovici... but she is so incredibly
consistent, and never makes any mistakes! So, overall, she is at the top
of the world... Perhaps Gina does not have any particularly strong point,
but she does not have a weak one either! Absolutely none. If you will
permit my comparison, she is exactly like Ivan Ivankov. These two
gymnasts possess the same characteristics."
Next to him, Gina is silent in agreement. Listless? A little.
Reserved? A lot. Obstinate? Passionately. Discreet? Definitely.
Uninteresting? Not at all!
Gina Gogean is a gymnast from Eastern Europe, and Romanian at
that. In other words, exuberance is a foreign characteristic to her.
Good work and general silence, combined with respect to her coaches, that
is her way. Would people still criticize and condemn her conduct and
compare her to girls from more advanced countries if that was taken into
proper account?
Apart from that, if Gina lacks the notoriety of Nadia Comaneci, the
crowd-pleasing popularity of Ekatarina Szabo, the radiance of Aurelia
Dobre, the technical mechanics of Daniela Silivas, and the brave nobility
of Lavinia Milosovici, all the Romanians who fluttered at the top
during their respective careers, it is because she is a champion in
transition. A shy young girl, easily under a lot of pressure, who will
not leave an indelible trace in gymnastics history but who will definitly
help her country in its rebirth, a sporting achievement not unwelcome.
"I don't like to talk a lot, especially about myself," Gina
declares. "Everybody was expecting Lavinia to win the European
Championships, us also, but I myself also think that there is too much
pressure on her shoulders! She is the symbol of beauty and success, and I
was only number two, perhaps capable of taking over if something happened.
A lot of people are sorry that she did not win, and this may surprise you,
but myself also. We had it all forseen, and it had to happen. Lavinia
will continue, I hope, until the 1996 Olympics which she will win. The
saddest thing for her, I think, wasn't losing the European Championships
behind me, becuase she immediately came to congratulate me and gave me a
hug. No, the hardest thing for her was losing the World Championships in
Brisbane to Shannon Miller!"
That's it. Gina doesn't say anything else. In all she related,
this single revelation spoke a lot for her, if you compare it to the
colorless and unintelligent declarations often heard from young
victors...that's to say, those obviously lacking maturity. For the new
European Championn, not only in the all-around but on beam as well, it's
not really about the causticity as it is the lucidity. And, after all,
that's not so bad for a champion in transition...>



-Posted by Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 00:30:56 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: Ivan Ivankov profile

"Ivan From The East", written by Richard Montaignac, published in
the French sports magazine, *L'Equipe*.

<It is a case. We were expecting Scherbo, hoping for Korobchinsky,
would have been satisfied with Misutin, but instead came Ivankov. The
nice young boy with the ruddy appearance became, too early, "the"
champion. Not that he's not a well-built man, but rather that he wasn't
really prepared to become such a large figure in gymnastics. In any case,
not this quickly! At the World Championships in Brisbane, when at that
time he was suppose to be overwhelmed and nervous, the Belarussian shocked
us all!
"I will admit it," says Ivan, "that I even shocked myself! I was
not thinking about winning in Brisbane and was hoping just to mount the
podium. I believed that Scherbo would win because he has so much
experience and the judges love him. I was not expecting anyone else to
win, least of all myself!"
Honest and modest, he is a gymnast that can not be ignored from
now on. Surprisingly, he is the World Champion from Brisbane and the
European Champion from Prague. However, one must realize that he is a
champion who is not complete yet. Young, serious, applying, and a
perfectionist-wait, this Ivan surely must remind you of another
Belarussian...
"My coach, Vatkin, insists I am far from my capabilities and that
if I keep training hard I will progress further. I need to believe it, I
want to believe it, however, I just don't know how far I can go- I wonder
these questions. For now, the difficulty that was reconstructing my
routines was worth it because of the success I have shown at various
competitions..."
Curiously in effect, Ivan Ivankov is technically the best
all-around gymnast in the world, but not at all the best on each
apparatus! If we take the results from the last two large meets (94
Worlds and Europeans) and we look at all twelve apparatus finals that took
place, Ivan is a disputed seventh place individually.
"I know that, and I haven't stopped saying it: the competition out
there is rough," Ivan coldly analyses. "I won the all-around but have
never said that I will win again tomorrow. A lot of young talents are
coming up... As good as, if not better, than me. I have an advantage,
that I have won my titles before them. Whatever happens next, I still
have these two titles that will never disappear from my achievement
list... About each event, if I'm not the best right now, I can still mount
the podium on any of them. But I tell you that I will definitely win an
individual event title soon, you will see!"
His double victories at Prague (All-around, team) can be
attributed to his consistency, his light-moving and artistic style, risks
on certain moves, and movements performed with virtuosity (rings, pommel
horse, parallel bars). These are his gymnastic characteristics.
Personally, there is a certain juvenile enthusiasm about his natural
character, like a boy that has an example of greatness set before him,
like a kind older brother. He is modelling, though not exactly copying,
the style of Vitali Scherba. Both Belarussians are proud of it.
"Gymnastics is my way of expressing myself," explains Ivan. "I
don't speak well and am easily embarrased in a large group of people, but
I can assure you that when I'm with my friends, I'm always talking and
joking! It's true that our guidance prepares us to be like that...
Learning the proper training technique is vital for gymnasts, but knowing
how to answer questions from journalists without sounding like a twit is
important too. We rarely share our thoughts and that's really sad, or
we are timid and don't like to talk, or we are aggresive like Vitali who
is always on the defensive because he is always being attacked...But when
we are mature and ready to talk it is too late- our careers are over!
It's frustrating, something must be done about this..."
A pertitent remark on the part of a mature and well-behaved boy
who always has something to say. It is obvious that this Ivan is not cut
from the same cloth as another Ivan, Ivan the Terrible...>


-posted by Amanda


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 12:16:51 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: list was broken!

Hi all! The list was broken for a few days. If you sent something out
recently and never got a copy of it, it probably didn't go out at all --
if it's still relevant, please send it again if possible. Sorry!

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 17:14:44 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Misc. News From the AP

The venue for gymnastics in the 1996 Olympics has been moved (as have many
others from The Omni to the Georgia Dome

Dominque Dawes was named the female athlete of the month by the USOC (cyclist
Martin Northstein won for the men). I assume by "the month" they meant August
as this was an article from September 10th.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:02:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: Naming skills

If I remember correctly, the systematic naming of skills wasn't really popular
until around the '87 Worlds. It seems to me that the very popular difficult
skills are named after the inventor, irregardless of sex (Tsuk, Jaeger,
Geinger). In the US, the Federation and coaches started pushing for the naming
of skill possibly for TV and promotional purposes. It is easier for an
audience to remeber a "Miller" vs. backhandspring with 90 degree long axis turn
to arrive in momentary handstand. Naming also gives a gymnast a degree of
immortality. Betty Okino has 2 skills in the Code (can you name them?). Many
years from now people may forget Betty, but the various Okino's will probably
still be in the Code. (BTW--which American has the most named skills in the
Code? What are the skills?)

As for SV, it has been suggested that sports reporters be given a sheet
detailing each gymnast's routine, bonus, and SV for more accurate TV coverage.
I know a personal pet peeve is a reporter misnaming/misdescribing a skill.
A SV sheet is an attempt to raise Neilson's for gymanstics (read women's) by
making it closer to figure skating. In skating, even when people don't know
the difference between jumps, they can "know" where a jump should be and that
changing it can lead to a difference in score. (1) One
reason I like K. Johnson's reporting is that she knows the skills and is honest
about her opinions on deductions. ("That is WAY too low/high.")

When I judge, I figure SV at then end. I'm too busy writing down skills,
connections, and deductions to worry about bonus and requirements. The only
problem a gymnast may encounter when repeating a skill/series is she may not
get any credit for the second attempt. The standard example is as follows:

ff (stop) ff [later] ff-ff
B , 0 B, 0 credit

Since a skill can only be performed twice (with different connections), she
would receive no credit for the second nor fourth ff. She would, however,
receive acro series credit.

Enough for now, I guess.

Julius

(1) Does anyone remember Nancy Kerrigan's '91 World long program? She ADDED
a triple-triple combination (rather she upgraded from a double-triple, but
still) and attempted an aditional triple (Salchow upgrade), which probably
helped her earn a bronze. That is like changing a full-in to a double-double
and adding an extra double back!

J

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 01:16:34 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Nunno

>Lets face it, weight is
>an issue in gymnastics not only from the point that a fat gymnast looks
>yucky but also that an overweight gymnast puts herself at risk for
>injury.

Can somebody please tell me where I can find a guide of some sort to tell me
when my gymnasts are "overweight?"

I would really hate to have gymnasts who look "yucky." Gee. Almost as much as
I would hate denying a young lady gymnastics training because she is
overweight. The question again, my dears, is the strength to weight ratio.
Why does everybody have to focus on the bottom of this equation only?

>Yes Steve can be cruel and yes I've seen him go to far

IMHO, no coach should be cruel or "go to (sic) far." Regardless of the level
of the competitor.

>Lets face it gymnastics is harsh, gymnastics tears up your body,
>gymanstics eats up little girls childhoods.

It doesn't have to do any of the above. Unfortunately, because the two most
well-known coaches in America have used such means, many people in the
gymnastics community are getting the impression that girls must sacrifice
their childhoods and bodies on the mighty altar of gymnastics in order to
become world champions.

Believe what you want. Some of us will be busting our crumps to prove that
theory wrong...

David

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 05:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: ***@freenet.vancouver.bc.ca
Subject: Olympics 2000

The address for the Sydney 2000 Olympic Organizing Committee is:
Level 13, Maritime Centre
207 Kent Street
Sydney, New South Wales 2000
AUSTRALIA

Good luck.

Roy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:54:10 -0400
From: ***@SWOSU.EDU
Subject: OLYMPICS IN ATLANTA

Does anyone have any information concerning the gymnastics events for the
1996 Olympics in Atlanta? Are there addresses to write to for information
concerning tickets, housing, etc?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 01:16:51 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Outrageous Opinions (was Re: Nunnnnno)

>Also speaking of outrageous opinions, what's the deal with China possibly
>boycotting Asian Games (does anyone have any details)? Now that's
>outrageous. Taiwan exists, Mr. Deng. Get over it.

I've passed your message to Mr. Deng. He laughed.

But seriously, forget China boycotting. My understanding is that China is
just trying to make a point that there is an issue here, but not enough of
one to actually keep the mainland out of the games. It's just China being
China, demanding a little attention and face. Be cool.

BTW, Li Ning and Yong Yan will be at Worlds at Dortmund. Apparently Li Ning
will be supervising the men's judging or something. If any of you are going,
let me know by email.

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 14:39:09 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Pan American Cup (re-send)

I don't think that this ever made it thorough so here it is again ...

>From the AP newswire ... "Sport Shorts" ...

"Salt Lake's Deidra Graham will compete next week at the Pan American Cup in
Monterrey, Mexico. The meet is Graham's
first since she qualified for the national team last month, and
will feature the top junior gymnasts in the Americas. Coach Mary
Wright from the Olympus School of Gymnastics will accompany Graham."

posted by Susan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:27:32 -0400
From: ***@cykick.jvnc.net
Subject: Proposed Cable Channel (was Re: Street address for CBS)

Thanks for providing the building number for CBS, Kathy! I couldn't
remember whether it was 51 or 52 (and the NY Times TV section I reviewed -
which has addresses for all the cable channels it lists - only provides
addresses for the local affiliates. Sigh!)

Kathy also writes (in part):

>BTW, I read an article in the NY Times recently describing
>an attempt to put together a new cable channel devoted to
>sports for women. In the brief interview with one of the
>guys behind the idea, he mentioned tennis, golf, and
>figure skating, but *not* gymnastics. (Sigh.) Has anyone
>else heard more about this? I haven't noticed anything
>in Variety.

USA Today had an item about this last week - if I could only recall which
day... Believe it or not, there are TWO groups racing to provide this sort
of service.
One of them was (I think) Liberty, which already offers coverage of women's
sports events (notably NCAA stuff - maybe SEC gymnastics? Ron?) to various
outlets like Prime. According to the stuff I read (both USA Today and
NYT), look for something to premiere by 1st quarter '95.

Of course, then there's going to be the matter of whether any of this will
show up on your local cable...

If I find any of the articles, I post further - unless someone else beats
me to it! ;-)

Going back to CBS, any word on whether the network was going to go thru
with the "other" female-targeted programming being contemplated - gag! -
original romance movies???

Helena Robinson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:11:00 PST
From: ***@electriciti.com
Subject: re tricks, deductions

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents' worth on the "Onodi":

Back in 1983, when Olga Mostepanova (USSR/Russia) performed the Arabian
handspring in her world-championship beam set (out of a stunning 190-degree
split pirouette step-out flip-flop, with no pauses), FIG wasn't paying much
attention to naming moves -- nor were federations politicking it up.

But don't get me started on the name thang ...

Nancy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 16:42:36 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Snady Knapp (re-send)

>From an article in the "Indianapolis Star" (_Our City Too Has It's Share Of
Heros_) ranking the top 25 most important people in Indianapolis sports ...

"[number]10. Sandy Knapp. This 6-0 woman stood tall, literally and
figuratively, in a previously man's world. As the first director of
the Indiana Sports Corp., she combined a dynamic personality with
tireless effort in establishing a model for sports developement now
copied around the country. Knapp, now an independent sports
consultant living in Austin, Texas, is president of the locally
based U.S. Gymnastic Federation. "

Does she still live in Austin I wonder ... now that she's offcially assumed
her duties?

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:48:18 -0400
From: ***@wam.umd.edu
Subject: some questions...

Is there a deduction for women on Floor Ex if no music is used??

It is my understanding that before a routine is performed the
judges will go over the routine to determine the start value.
So on beam for example the judge will know what the entire
exercise consists of. If a gymnast does not connect a move when
it was 'intended' but puts it in later is there a deduction...

Ex judge sees for acro series ff lo lo but when the gymnast
is up she performs ff lo and does not perform the second layout.
Assuming there is time left..the gymnast throws it at the end
of the routine and makes the connection...is there a deduction
in the judges eyes since she know that was not the intended routine..
or is a good cover just as good with no deduction....

one other question what is an illusion turn and someone mention
an Onodi a while back what move is it?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:59:15 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: some questions...

> Is there a deduction for women on Floor Ex if no music is used??

Yes, one half point.

> It is my understanding that before a routine is performed the
> judges will go over the routine to determine the start value.
> So on beam for example the judge will know what the entire
> exercise consists of.

This is incorrect. Judges figure the SV (start value) of a
routine *while the gymnast is performing it.* Do you think that judges
watched all the podium training and memorize everybody's routine or
something? That would be nearly impossible and I'm sure chaos would
ensue... Although, the judges do know the SV of the vault by the number
the gymnast flashes prior to her run. But if another vault is performed,
contrary to the vault originally indicated, then the vault will be judged
from the SV of the vault *actually performed*, plus a deduction (.3) for
flashing the incorrect number in the first place.

>If a gymnast does not connect a move when it was 'intended' but puts it in
later is there a deduction...
No deduction is made unless there is a break. However, she may
not get *credit* for the move that she performed, because it must be
connected with another move of a certain value.

> Ex judge sees for acro series ff lo lo but when the gymnast
> is up she performs ff lo and does not perform the second layout.
> Assuming there is time left..the gymnast throws it at the end
> of the routine and makes the connection...is there a deduction
> in the judges eyes since she know that was not the intended routine..
> or is a good cover just as good with no deduction....
>
Well, first off a judge would *not* see a ff lo lo "planned", and
so if a gymnast performed a flawless ff lo, no deduction would be made.
*If* she makes a good cover and later throws ff lo lo (or ff lo ff, which
is worth the same bonus wise-don't ask me why!:-)) then it would not
necessarily be obvious that a change was made. A recent example of
situation like this would be the one from the Goodwill Games beam finals,
when (if you remember Kathy J. pointed it out) Anghela Ghimpu (Romania)
was going to throw the ever-popular ff lo ff lo but broke after the second
ff. She immediately traversed to the other end of the beam and repeated
all four skills, being quite obvious about repeating the skill. I'm
pretty sure she was deducted...besides not getting the credit, she was
just reinforcing in the judges mind the fact that she made a significant
error... Andreea Cacovean also had a similar though less noticable
problem on beam in the team competition (prior to her fall).

>an Onodi a while back what move is it?

Well, technically an Arabian handspring on beam is an "Onodi" although it
was performed by Olga Mostepenova (CCCP) at the 83 Worlds in Budapest-she
was World Champ on beam that year btw...

Speaking of named skills, I'm continuing this topic of "some
questions"...

Most of us know that in gymnastics, a Gienger (flyaway with legs
together 1/2 twist regrasp) is a move on high bar and the uneven bars.
So why is a full-twisting Gienger a "Def" on the high bar, but a
"Hristiekeva" on the unevens... And on floor, I'm sure Silivas,
Chusovitina, and Tuzhikova are not credited with, respectively, full-in
full-out, double layout full-out, and double layout full-in, in the men's
code of points! They are credited with these moves in the women's code,
as they were the first women to perform these moves. But men performed
the same ones before them, so why aren't they accredited to to the men
who originated them? A Tsukahara vault, invented by a male gymnast, is a
Tsukahara in both the women's code and the men's code. A Yurtchenko
vault, invented by a female, is a a Yurtchenko in both too (I'm 90% sure
anyway). But a Deltchev is a Deltchev, whether you're a man or woman...
Anybody know what the discrepincies are here?

Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 02:56:39 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: some questions...

>Well, technically an Arabian handspring on beam is an "Onodi" although it
was performed by Olga Mostepenova (CCCP) at the 83 Worlds in Budapest-she was
World Champ on beam that year btw<

Well actually I believe that you need the connection in front of the Arabian
to make it an Onodi.

>Judges figure the SV (start value) of a routine *while the gymnast is
performing it.* Do you think that judges watched all the podium training and
memorize everybody's routine or something?<

Also what was "planned" does not always correspond to what is actually done
and there is no out and out deduction for that (unless the lack makes them
miss a required element). Of course, if a judge has seen the same routine ten
billion times and knows that such and such a move was supposed to be at the
end there may be a mental deduction which is most likely balanced by the
whole name recognition thing. I still say that the most blatent gift ever
given in gymnastics is Christina Bontas' compo beam in Barcelona. End a long
day, last ROM up, with a big name to boot. Half a points worth of deductions
(easy) gave her a 9.9 ...

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 09:43:56 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: some questions...

>Do you think that judges watched all the podium training and memorize
everybody's routine or something? That would be nearly impossible and I'm
sure chaos would ensue...<

As a matter of fact, they do. They don't memorize the routines, however, but
they do write them down. The STC's (start value judges) especially watch
everybody's practice on their event and write down every routine. It seems
on its face a rather appalling thing to do, but the truth is that it's a good
thing, or at the very least a necessary evil. By doing that, the judges can
check on the values of skills and connections they're uncertain about so they
don't have to waste time doing so in the middle of the competition and risk
making a mistake. By knowing more or less what to expect, the judge only has
to register any changes as they happen rather than think about everything at
once. IMO it much reduces the chance of error in a SV. Yes, there's a risk
of prejudging, but it's not really so bad, especially compared to the chaos
and confusion of judging/STC-ing totally cold.

Adriana

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 15:00:54 EDT
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Street address for CBS is 51 W. 52nd St. in NYC

Just to augment what Helena and Ken provided, CBS's corporate address is:

CBS
51 W. 52nd St.
New York, NY 10019

A few other comments:

CBS does occasionally show NCAA track and field, buried in the same
sort of time slots men's gymnastics gets. I don't understand this
since (1) most track and field events are very simple to understand,
and, except for things like fouling, completely objective--whoever
goes fastest/furthest/highest wins; (2) the U.S. both currently
and historically has done well in a lot of the events, both
men and women; and (3) except for long distance races, providing
good, interesting coverage shouldn't be that difficult.
Of course, the same could be said of speed skating and swimming....

CBS has apparently decided to meet their objective of providing
more skating coverage on Sunday afternoons (to attract the
female viewers not watching football) not by bringing us coverage
of amateur competitions we don't otherwise get to see (like Nations
Cup or the Canadian Nationals), but by creating a completely
new series of pro-am competitions. I have this horrible fear of
having the same thinking applied to gymn coverage. Personally,
I cringe at the prospect of seeing more programs like that
bizarre Sudafed thing from a couple of years ago, especially
when we could see all sorts of great international competitions
like Europeans, as well as more NCAA and national coverage!

BTW, I read an article in the NY Times recently describing
an attempt to put together a new cable channel devoted to
sports for women. In the brief interview with one of the
guys behind the idea, he mentioned tennis, golf, and
figure skating, but *not* gymnastics. (Sigh.) Has anyone
else heard more about this? I haven't noticed anything
in Variety.

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 16:43:40 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: The Stork Cometh (re-send)

The American gymnastics community is growing by leaps and bounds lately as
the number of "expecting" gymnasts grows and grows ...

Mary Lou and her husband (can't remember his name) are expecting their first
child as are Kris and Mihai Bagiu.

Chris Waller and his wife Cindy (married last summer) are also expecting in
January.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:37:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: Top most important (SI) list

(Bad subject line, I know)

I think Olga was included because she completely revolutionized not only the
sport buy how it was viewed. Yes, she did introduce new, risky elements. (The
standing back was almost outlawed as too dangerous by the FIG. The standing
back (these are on beam) was also performed first at the Olympics by an
American, Nancy Their.) Those who are older can probably testify better that
she also made gymnasics quite a bit more visible and popular. Cathy Rigby may
have been the first American to medal, buy Olga was the first superstar. Olga
demanded trips to the West from the USSR and got them. She became (that most
hated phenomenon) a media sensation.

Nadia changed the sport, yes. Nadia embodied perfection and mental dedication.
Nadia demonstrated that perfection was possible, but Olg completely changed who
watched the sport and how it was perceived.

Synchronized swimming is pretty to watch, but how many people truly comprehend
its difficulty? Olga was pretty to watch and also "took your breath away."

[An aside---there were some very difficult skills being performed at the '72
Olympics. The Janz salto is similar to a Jaeger. Some gymnasts also had much
more difficult tumbling runs than Olga, yet Olga was astounding in her overall
daring.]

I think my favorite quality of Nadia's was her ability to make gymnastics look
effortless. Her beam routine was incredibly light, yet amazingly difficult.
Her acro series and dismount were successfully used in the '84 Olympics.
(aerial cartwheel-ff, cartwhell double full). Her UPB (optional) routine would
still have received a 10.0 in '84 (probably in '88 as well, but I'd have to
check. We had this discussion last year.) However, Nadia's perfection may
have led people toforget HOW difficult gymnastics actuall is. Irony of the
sport, I guess.

As for Retton, she was certainly an important figure in the US. (Without
detracting from her accomplishments, does anyone remember what else she did
besides win the American Cup (3 times) and the Olympics?) She won the right
meets at the right time and probably did more to foster American gymnastics
than probably any other gymnast. (More than Nadia, maybe?) Yet she was not
a consistent gymnast.

Ok--I'm opening myself up for remarks, but hey! That's what we're here for :)

Julius

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 19:30:41 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Top most important (SI) list

Julius wrote:

> As for Retton, she was certainly an important figure in the US. (Without
> detracting from her accomplishments, does anyone remember what else she did
> besides win the American Cup (3 times) and the Olympics?)

I'd just like to say from an non-American point of view that from the gymn
people that I know, they didn't think much of Mary Lou... all we know she did
was to win a boycotted Olympics and nothing else. That's all we saw of her
anyway (and Szabo should've won that Olympics...). Hope I don't upset anyone
but as with all gymnasts, we will tend to like him/her better if we get to
see him/her more often. Of course it's great that Mary Lou had transformed
the American gymnastics scene as it is today (Three AA World Champions in
the last three World Championships) but we outside of America didn't get too
excited about Mary Lou's Olympics victory simply because, well, we're not
American.

Sherwin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 23:44:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: tricks, deductions

There is a deduction for no music if no music was EVERY used.
There is NOT a deduction if music started then stopped (broke) but the gymnast
continued.

A gymnast is never penalized (in an ideal world) for changing his or her
routine. If she performs a ff-lo-lo after having already performed a ff-lo
there is no deduction (except for form, balance, etc.). She would receive
the bonos (+0.1) for the second series.

An Onodi is an Arabina-handspring. That is starting backward, half twist to
a front handspring. This, of course, is on beam. E value.

An illusion (full) is when a gymnasts essentially bends over and tries to touch
her toes while doing a full turn on one leg. (Her free leg passes through a
split as she reaches down.) D on beam.

Julius

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 01:15:17 -0500
From: ***@expert.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: U.S. Nationals

I realize this is kind of late in the asking, but why was Shannon's bar
routine only scored out of a 9.9 in Event Finals? Was her dismount not
counted as a true double layout?

Thanks,
Lori

------------------------------

End of gymn Digest
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