GYMN-L Digest - 11 Jun 1996 - Special issue
There
are 18 messages totalling 607 lines in this
issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. More WAG:National Championships
2. John Macready/Lisa Macready
3. GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996
4. Karoli
Choreography (2)
5. GYMNastics on the radio
6. Media coverage of gymnastics (fwd)
7. Karolyi choreography
8. US of A Nationals:
WAG (VAULT)
9. HOPELESS! (was Karoli Choreography) (3)
10. GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996 to 11 Jun
1996
11. Karolyi
chor.
12. M/W Post-US natls
prognosis
13. GYMN-L Digest -
10 Jun 1996 to 11 J
14. JO mens Program and Team '96
15. Fwd:
one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:35:49
PDT
From: ***@AMDAHL.CO.ZA
Subject:
Re: More WAG:National
Championships
And in a recent isuue of IG,
Kelli hill says, "Dominique thinks the world of
Jaycie, I can't imagine there ever being unfriendly
competition between
them."
---------------Original
Message---------------
Actually in regard to what was said about the
women's team not liking
each other, nothing could
be farther from the truth.
Dawes and miller are great friends, as well as
miller, strug, and
thompson.
I also remeber borden saying how much she like dawes
fontaine,
strug
and miller. I think that the reason
they show no team spirit
during competitions is
related to their coaches attitudes.
Alisa
----------End of
Original Message----------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:12:47
CDT
From: ***@PROCTR.CBA.UA.EDU
Subject:
John Macready/Lisa Macready
Does anyone know if John Macready and Lisa
Macready, formerly of
Univ. of Nebraska women's team, are related? They kind of look a
like.
Shawn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:43:00
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Re: GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996
What I want to know is where is Trent
Dimas, I heard he was going to try and
make the 96
Olympics too. Does anyone know?
also Congrats to
Shannon, although I doubted her she has really held up. and
good luck to Jaycie Phelps and
Vanessa Atler!
Sara
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:49:59
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Karoli Choreography
I'm sorry, but I think
that the Karoli's win first prize for the worst
choreography in the world. I remember in '92 just laughing
at Kerri Strug and
Kim Zmeskals
rediculously choreographed floor sets and now they
are forcing
Dominique Moceanu to make a fool of
herself. I think she is really talented,
but I
wish she would just wake up and go to a real coach, like Steve Nunno.
You would think she would have learned after the
'92 Olympics when the U.S.
women failed (except
for Shannon as usual). Not to be totally critical, I
will
say that the us girls have improved greatly since '92 especially in
there difficulty. I remember Elfi
and Tim raving about the girls doing full
ins
dismounts off bars, and only the best did double layouts, now practically
everyone does double layouts. The women have improved, yes,
the US men on the
other hand, one word comes to
mind: HOPELESS! First of all Scott Keswick
always
manages to fail at major competitions, John MacReady,
ha ha, ha ha,
lets not even get into it, he's good on floor and thats it. Mihai Bagu is
usually pretty good,
awesome floor set, I love the arabian double
front.
Trent and Chris,you
had your chance in '92 you blew it, not to mention the
fact
that they are like 30. I really like John Rothlisburger,
he is the only
good one.
And what happened at Nationals? Like every single guy fell of the
pommel horse, I mean they have been doing the exact same
routines for what 20
years? come
on guys, get a grip. The U.S guys are going to be BLOWN AWAY by
everybody at the Olympics especially Belarus, Ivan, Vitali, and Russia, Alexi
Nemov
is unbeatable, and some of China's guys are awesome. I am also sick of
these cheap unentertaining front passes in the floor
routines, I mean Blane
opened
with a front full ? ? What is that?? I know that the code gives them a
high value, but still they should think of us at home, we dont want to watch
front
layouts and fulls that we can already do ourselves. I
think that John
Rothlisburger has the best
variety in his floor routines, good combos, big
tricks.
Anyway, thats all the ripping apart I will do for
now
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:58:20
+0200
From: ***@MERCUR.USAO.EDU
Subject:
Re: GYMNastics on the radio
it's strange that no one's ever heard of gymnastics being
broadcasted on
the radio. the
local sports radio channel had full, live coverage of the
olympics, including gymnastics. lots and lots, with commentary on
athletes
that wouldn't be on tv, like the israli
woman (i can't remember
her
name) british, belgum, dutch ect... i
did have this on tape, but soon
after that my
house was broken into, and they where stolen. (sob)
during the olympic festivil in oklahoma city, kelly garrison did radio
comentary of the gymnastics events. she explained a lot of what we
missed.
and her comentary was one
step above the one that was doing it on tv.
since i'm in oklahoma
city, the local media have decided that if miller
isn't
in the competion, it's not news. her
"failure" worlds was covered,
but
nothing about who won, that wasn't news i was told. sabe wasn't
covered
at all because she didn't compete. i
kind of feel sorry for her,
all the tv interviews after nationals focused on the fact that
she
"failed' on the beam, and she kept
apologizing to everyone. when really
she should be proud, after all, she won.
about the papers, and
the coverage, the georga paper might do
different
'editions' for the diffrent
parts of their readership. the oklahoman
covers OU gymnastics, but only in the sections that are read
in okc or
norman,
the rest of the state usually gets horse racing results.
i'm glad to see mohini qualify for the olympic
trials. she is one of my
fav gymnasts, one of the reasons i
like her, is because she persevers,
when many would just give up. and i'm proud she won an individual medal
at nationals, way to go moh!!!!!
this is a really dumb question, but i
must ask it, why are the isreali's
part of the europen
championships.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:39:04
-0500
From: ***@MAIL.COIN.MISSOURI.EDU
Subject:
Re: Karoli Choreography
> choreography in the world. I remember in '92 just laughing
at Kerri Strug and
> Kim Zmeskals
rediculously choreographed floor sets and now they
are forcing
> Dominique Moceanu to make a fool
of herself. I think she is really talented,
Ridiculously choreographed
floor sets? I seem to remember that at the
time,
both girl's sets were some of the best routines around, especially
Kim's routine which implemented elements (i.e. the triple whip
back
tumbling run) which no other gymnast, in my
recollection, could pull off.
> but I wish
she would just wake up and go to a real coach, like Steve Nunno.
Steve
is a good coach, but let's not forget that Bela is
the one to have
coached some of the best gymnasts
ever (ex. Nadia, Mary Lou, Kim). So,
don't give
him short shrift, especially to Nunno. He is not the
best by far.
> You would think she would have learned after the '92
Olympics when the U.S.
> women failed (except
for Shannon as usual). Not to be totally critical, I
Failed? They
earned the bronze team medal, which, I beleive, was
the best
showing for the women's team for a long
time. Shannon is only human; she
can fall just
like the rest of them...and she will, too, one day.
I am all behind
Dominique - she has the talent, she has the coach, and
she
has the drive to win the all-around in Atlanta.
--Michael :)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:05:01
EDT
From: ***@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
Subject:
Media coverage of gymnastics (fwd)
Garlfar said:
>Yes, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution
did have 2 little articles on rhythmic
>gymnastics.
So, technically, they did "cover" the rhythmic national
>championships last week. I, unlike Beth, on the other hand,
do not consider
>a brief article on Jessica
Davis, and no listing of the results of the
>competition,
as real coverage of an event.
As well as the article on Jessica Davis,
there was an article on Becky
Turner (candidate for the
U.S. Olympic group team).
Results for the all-
around competition
were given on the "Scoreboard" page of the AJC.
>When the
AJC "covers" baseball, they don't just say the Braves won, or
the
>Reds lost to the Padres. We see scores, statistics, and sometimes
pictures.
>The AJC can printed the results of every PGA golf tournament,
minor league
>baseball, some obscure tennis
match overseas, bowling scores, the fishing
>forecast
(and people in Atlanta don't go fishing), and who won at the pogo
>jumping finals. EVERYDAY. You mean to tell me that they
can't post the
>results of the U.S. Classic,
the rhythmic national championships, and even
>the
national championships? A few crumby articles about Shannon Miller and
>an very occasional short article about another well-known
gymnast (always
>around the time of a big
competition) doesn't qualify as real gymnastics
>coverage.
During
the recently held mens/womens
artistic gymnastics competitions, the
AJC had articles on John Macready,
Coach Peter Kormann, Amanda Borden,
Jay Thornton as well as photographs of each (including John
Roethlisberger).
Individual scores were also included on the
"Scoreboard" page each day for
both mens/womens.
I
personally think the AJC has been doing the best job possible considering
the fact that there are MANY pre-Olympic
trials/competitions/events/human
interest stories
etc. going on at the same time (both now, in the
last
couple of months and in the next few weeks). I'm sure every fan
of ANY of the Summer Olympic events would have a similar
complaint about
the lack of media coverage for
their particular favorite event. I
enjoy
gymnastics and relish readings any and all
articles regarding the sport.
However, I might feel the same about
badminton and in that case I WOULD
have a reason
to complain.
By the way, when was the article about the pogo jumping
finals -- I must
have missed that article. So who won??????
>I know from
personal experience- TAKE WHAT YOU SEE IN THE MEDIA WITH A GRAIN
>OF
SALT. This isn't just about gymnastics, it's about everything. There is
>always
more to the story, than what meets the eye.
This statement could apply
to other things as well as the media -- maybe
even
Discussion Lists?
:-)
Beth-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:38:43
+0100
From: ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject:
Karolyi choreography
Dont
make me laugh...
Geza Poszar
(his choreographer) should be tried for war crimes for bringing
misery to the lives of millions worldwide... women and
children were not
spared.
Love,
Me
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:12:01
-0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject:
US of A Nationals: WAG (VAULT)
Anyone know why the 0.1 bonus was not used this year at Nationals? Or was it?
Bonus
was for throwing two different vaults last year.
Jeff
Dina,
Dina, Dina.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:24:32
-0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject:
HOPELESS! (was Karoli
Choreography)
> Trent and Chris,you had your chance in '92 you blew it, not to
mention the
> fact that they are like 30. I really like John Rothlisburger, he is the only
> good
one.
Here is a little Olympic History, John: In Barcelona, 1992, Trent Dimas
"blew
it"
by winning a the only Gold Medal that Vitaly Scherbo didn't take.
Wow! You're
right, he blew
it!!!
> I mean they have been doing the exact same routines for
what 20
> years? come
on guys, get a grip.
Actually, many if not all of the guys have
upgraded their routines from Sabae.
The top 7 scores C/O from USA's are
considerably higher than their AA team scores from
Sabae. So to
answer your question, no, they haven't been doing these routines for 20
years.
>
but still they should think of us at home, we dont want to watch
> front
layouts and fulls that we can already do
ourselves.
I will pass the word-- I am sure they will be more than
happy to change their
Routines for your
viewing pleasure.
I am just amazed at the comments I read here
by all the armchair Brevet judges
after a televised
competition.
Kris Bagiu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:55:35
-0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject:
Re: GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996 to 11 Jun 1996
>1.US men as
hopeless as ever. I see undertrained, basic-free, basement
>level difficulty totally oblivious to their real placement
in the world.
>Macready is doing a highbar set
at 1985 difficulty(and because of his great
>form, I actually like him). Not really fair to single him
out, because
>there are so many examples.
Wilson does seem to have a good level of diff.,
>but
are ohio state gymnasts genetically incapable of
pointing their feet?
>It is a shame that the one hardworking guy we seem
to have, Rothlesberger,
>has
no one to back him up. I'm amazed at all the comments about Bill Roth's
>"surprising" breakdown. Has this guy ever hit 6 for 6 in
his entire life?
>It was totally expected, as he seems to be incapable
of taking gym
>seriously enough to compete at a
high level. Considering the amount of
>funding
so many of these guys are getting, I would expect a higher level of
>seriousness and a better result for the money.
I
wonder if you were at the same Championships that I was. The men looked
pretty
good, with a lot of potential for the future from our younger
gymnasts.
I want to know where you get off making
accusations about the guys' training
and work
ethic? Have you been in the
gym with them? Or are you part
of
that very strident MINORITY (and I do mean a
small minority) of people in
women's gymnastics
who celebrate the girls success by slamming the guys'
developing
program?
Your pointed criticism of Bill Roth is out of line. Contrary to your
beliefs,
a gymnast can show his love and enjoyment of this sport and still be
successful. Bill
is an outstanding gymnast and his enthusiasm during
training
and competition is far better for the gymnasts and the sport than
the exhibitions of the terminally morose or the gymnast with
the pasted on
smile.
The funding issue is
a cheap shot and way off base.
These guys are not
professional
athletes. They are supported (and
this is only the top few) at
a level that allows
them to continue to train; I certainly haven't seen any
indications
that anyone is getting rich.
Take a good look at the variety and
extreme difficulty of skills that are
required to
compete at the highest levels of Men's gymnastics. It should
come
as no surprise that it takes a lot of time to move to reach that
performance level.
We are in the middle of a long road back from the
successes
of 1984. A lot of mistakes have
been made along the way, but our
program is moving
up and will reach the levels we aspire to achieve. It just
takes
people who believe and who are willing to work to that end. The
critics
are just a small and annoying obstacle on that road.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:58:46
PDT
From: ***@AMDAHL.CO.ZA
Subject:
Karolyi chor.
I
liked Kim Zmeskal's 1991 FX routine.
I did NOT
like Dom M's routine from last year at all! It was really *ick*
especially that funny piano playing on her stomach! :0 I
haven't seen her
new floor, so I can't
comment.
I also haven't seen Strug's new floor,
but if it is bouncy, I'm sure I won't
like it. How
old is she now? 18? She is a mature, experienced gymnast. How
can she do a shaky bum floor?
I don't know!!!! :)
Helen.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:43:25
+0000
From: ***@IGC.APC.ORG
Subject:
M/W Post-US natls prognosis
Two thoughts on
an earlier post:
> Subject: NATIONALS
> It is a shame that
the one hardworking guy we seem to have, Rothlesberger
It's
hard for me to believe that Rothlesberger
(sp?) is the "one" hardworking
male gymnast in the United States.
> 2. Girls
were very encouraging. [SNIP] We have never had this
> kind of depth before, and it bodes well for our team medal
chances.
Definitely true about our depth, but I actually had higher
hopes for
a women's team medal before I saw
Nationals. Few great
vaults
(the Romanians will kick our butt on that
score), a lot of steps on
landings, nobody really
"sold" her floor routine.
Of course, maybe
it will smooth out by
Trials, and once at Atlanta there may be a lot
less
at stake. Thoughts, anyone,
after these latest displays of US
routines, how
the women will stack up against what we saw at
Europeans,
China, etc?
--Mary Lynne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:39:45
+0100
From: ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject:
Re: HOPELESS! (was Karoli
Choreography)
Here is a little Olympic History, John: In Barcelona, 1992, Trent Dimas
"blew it" by winning a the only Gold Medal that Vitaly Scherbo didn't take. Wow! You're
right, he blew
it!!!
Didnt Li Xiaoshuang
win floor?
> but still they should
think of us at home, we dont want to watch
> front layouts and fulls that we
can already do ourselves.
>I will pass the word-- I am sure they
will be more than happy to change their
> routines
>for your viewing
pleasure.
That would be cool.. thanks... And could you step on it please, theres not
much time will
Atlanta.
-Me
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:44:37
+0100
From: ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject:
Re: GYMN-L Digest - 10 Jun 1996 to 11 J
Take a good look at the
variety and extreme difficulty of skills that are
required
to compete at the highest levels of Men's gymnastics. It should
come
as no surprise that it takes a lot of time to move to reach that
performance level.
We are in the middle of a long road back from the
successes
of 1984. A lot of mistakes have
been made along the way, but our
program is moving
up and will reach the levels we aspire to achieve. It
just
takes people who believe and who are willing to work to that
end. The
critics
are just a small and annoying obstacle on that road.
I think
"Tomorrow Belongs to Me" needs to be playing in the background
during this speech.. if any of you
have seen Cabaret, you will get that
reference, if
you haven't, oh well... you miss out.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:52:03
-0700
From: ***@VALLEYNET.COM
Subject:
JO mens Program and Team '96
First let me
introduce my self. I am Kristoffer M. (not to be confused
this time
with Kris B) I am a JO boys coach and a judge. I have spent
the
last two years traveling the world looking at other countries gymnastics
programs mostly in the Former Soviet Union, and Europe. I am a ture
fan of
gymnastics and love good gymnastics
regardless of the coutry they are from.
I
have been criticized via e-mail and a post to the forum about my view on
the US mens program, posted a
couple of days ago. I have been
told that I
lack vision and don't see the real
potential of the US team, and the Future
in the JO
program. One Gentlemen
commented on the Developmental D's in th
JO
program and implied that I do not know what their intentions were. What
ever
their intentions this is what they do.
In regards to the JO
developmental D's, this is the exact opposite of what
we
should do to encourage the progression of skills. Increasing their value
make nonforward looking coaches
stop at the developmental D. Why
work
double lay when double pike is the same value
and an easier skill to make.
The developmental D's on
paper and with some coaches do help, I am not
bashing the USGF's attempt to developing skills. But ask yourself how many
coaches work past the Developmental D's in the JO
program? In my experience
it has been few.
To fix this problem we need to
devalue the skills. In the
countries I just
visited most skills are one
letter value less than FIG. Double
tuck is a B.
Off high bar it is an A.
This is true for almost all of the skills. That
is why
their gymnasts can do skills beyond the code. To receive a E in the
former Soviet Union you do a 4/2 double lay out. Because 1/1 double lay is
only a D. this requires coaches to push their gymnasts past The basics
and
develop bigger and better skills.
The
problem with the current JO program is not necessaily
the program
itself, although it is part, but the
lack of forward looking coaches
training to become
World Champions not JO champions.
If you train for the
first the latter will
come. If you train for the latter
you get what we
have now.
I sorry that I
don't share your view on the potential of the US mens
team in
Atlanta. We do have many
gymnasts that can score well on single events,
like
Lynch on P-bars, and Bagiu on horse.
But I do not see any one
becoming an AA
threat to the TOP nations in the World.
Be honest with
yourself and look at the top
members of the US team.
Wilson - good clean gymnast, lacks a great
mount on floor, uses font
tumbling ( no bonus next
year). If his difficulty improved
on All of his
events
except for maybe rings. He could be
a threat. But not
now.
Rothlisberger - good gymnast, lacks consistency in big meets. When the
pressure
is on he does not always do well.
Look at the USA championship
event finals
he only medalled on 1 of the five events he competed.
McCready - does not belong there. He lacks strength and needs to go
back
and fix his basics. What good is a stutz to one rail if you take .2
deduction on every one and only get .1 back. Trying to do to
much too fast.
Simons - don't know much about Kip. He hits his routines but lacks the
big
skills necessary to win.
Stein - Know Josh
personally. Good gymanst, wont be a factor in Atlanta
Denk - no nothig about him
Bagiu - lacks consistency, needs to get
stronger for rings
Lynch - lacks consistency, and ring strength, perhaps the
most under rated
US gymnast.
Will place in P-bars in Atlanta.
Look at these gymnasts then
look at Belarus. Do you see the
depth of
Belarus and China.
China has two guys that could win the AA. Do we?
I wish I could share in
your optimism. But I don't.
Sincerly,
Kristoffer
M.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:38:50
+0100
From: ***@ASUCLA.UCLA.EDU
Subject:
Re: HOPELESS! (was Karoli
Choreography)
----------
From: ***
To: gymn
Subject: RE: HOPELESS! (was
Karoli Choreography)
Date: Tuesday, June 11, 1996
11:31AM
Here is a little Olympic History, John: In Barcelona, 1992, Trent Dimas
"blew
it" by
winning a the only
Gold Medal that Vitaly Scherbo
didn't take. Wow! You're
right, he
blew it!!!
Didnt Li Xiaoshuang win floor?
> but
still they should think of us at home, we dont want
to watch
> front layouts and fulls that we can already do ourselves.
>I will
pass the word-- I am sure they will be more than happy to change
their
> routines
>for your viewing pleasure.
That would be cool.. thanks... And could you step on
it please, theres not
much
time will Atlanta.
-Me
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:42:27
-0400
From: ***@ISMI.NET
Subject:
Re: Fwd: one
Hey!
Well, I just got
up and decided to write. You didn't
write yesterday and I
was wondering why, but now
that i've read your comments to gymn-l
I
understand, your foot was in your mouth and you
couldn't reach the keyboard!
In case you didn't know, Mihai
and Waller's Wife are on the list, as is
Keswicks!
Ouch! And I am not sure if you knew
this but I am a big Zmeskal
fan
and Strug (huge Strug fan).
As for Kim's floor in 92, it was great.
Not
only did it pull the crowd into the
routine but also the judges high scores.
Next, Bela
is a real coach, hello, 2 Olympics champions, one World Champion,
I agree
that Steve is a great coach but so is Bela. FAILED, when did they
fail in 92? A
bronze isn't exactally failing,
they won the bronze not lost
the gold.
>Now
onto the men, okay? First off, I
agree that MacCready isn't the best
gymnast ever, his difficulty level is definately
down, but his form is
awesome, and last time I
checked form was a big part of gymnasatics. Next,
hate
to break the news to ya bud, but Trent and Chris may
be 30, but Chris
is one of the best gymnast in the
country, he has great difficulty and the
US team REALLY needs him in
Atlanta. Trent didn't do as well as
he would
have like to but he did try, and I don't
think that we should dis on someond
for trying, I didn't see you there competing. Same routines huh? Well,
time
for a reality check, not only are they harder routines now but scoring
much higher, our scores combined improved 3 to 4 points at
nationals, if not
more. On to front tumbling, well, incase you
didn't notice, Belarus, China,
ect.
are doing front tumbling, and it is just as boring as
the US men's
front tumbling, okay?!!! Well, not sure if you're speaking to me
after this
but if so write back soon!
GO
U.S.A. GREAT CHOROEGRAPHY, GREAT DIFFICULTY, AND GREAT FRONT TUMBLING!!!
------------------------------
End
of GYMN-L Digest - 11 Jun 1996 - Special issue
**************************************************