GYMN-L Digest - 13 Jul 1996 - Special issue

There are 20 messages totalling 640 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

1. overscoring
2. coincedence idence or not???
3. Women AA champs and double layouts
4. "Predicting Poll" results - MEN
5. Karpenko vs. Moceanu (2)
6. Dominique Moceanu
7. Amanda
8. Olympic RSG rosters
9. overscoring (long)
10. TV ALERT (Philadelphia Area)
11. Sports Illus. (2)
12. Olympics tics for sale/trade
13. Gymn Tour/Olympics on TV
14. Post Olympic Tour (2)
15. GYMN-L Digest - 12 Jul 1996 - Special issue
16. Looking for Gym Director/Coach!
17. Overscoring.

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 18:57:52 +1000
From: ***@OZEMAIL.COM.AU
Subject: overscoring

>Aside from the American Cup, (which doesn't really have the best
>international competitors, anyway), the country most consistently overscored
>in competitions major and minor, in every country, is Romania.

Wow! Big statement. But think of all the times that Romanian gymnasts have
been underscored. Mirela Pasca in AB event finals many times. Optionals
vault in Barcelona - great Yurchenkos by Milo, Hadarean, and Neculita. And
I really don't know why everyone keeps going on about Milo being beam champ
in 93. OK, she repeated a move, and it was so obvious she was going for
bonus points, but she had better form than Dawes, and Li Li had a time
fault. I find Gogean a boring gymnast, but you have to admit her form is
clean, and she doesn't make the mistakes of others.

I also think the Americans have been underscored at times, especially this
decade. Michelle Campi at 91 Worlds on FX is an example that comes to mind.

My main concern about these upcoming Olympics is that all gymnasts are
scored fairly. You have to admit the US will have a HUGE (emphasis, not
shouting) home advantage. A repeat of the 84 scoring, ie not taking off the
proper deductions, will make me very disappointed indeed.

Simone

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:36:50 -0400
From: ***@WAM.UMD.EDU
Subject: coincedence idence or not???

Coin incidence or not :

Sonce incd 1984 has e 1 [C [C 1984 has there been a women
to win the AA at the Olympics
who did not open up frlo loor with a d Double Layout??

My a Perhp Any other facts characteristics common with previous AA
winners? This should
be an interesting topic.....

lat later

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:51:57 -0400
From: ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Women AA champs and double layouts

Asuarez asked if since 1984 there had been a women's AA champ in
the Olympics not to open with a double layout, and the answer is yes.
Elena Shushunova did not do a double layout in her floor routine in 1988;
she did only a tucked full-in.
Chris.

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:55:53 -0400
From: ***@KENT.NET
Subject: "Predicting Poll" results - MEN

Here are the results for the men - pathetic as they are. There were a total
of ten responses - most of which did not answer every question
completely. It's been asked before and I'll ask it again - why don't
people like the men as much as the women. Maybe its because most
of the list members are American, and on an international level the
American men really aren't that good. My sister and I are Canadian, and
we were able to answer all of the questions with out too much guessing.
(Neither the Canadian men nor the women are very good on an
international level) - Just a thought.

1. Team (in order) - point system is the same as for women - 5 points
for a gold vote, 3 for a silver, one for a bronze.

1. China - 45 (9,0,0)
2. Russia - 23 (0,7,2)
3. Belarus - 8 (1,0,3)
4. Ukraine - 6 (0,1,3)
5. Japan - 5 (0,1,2)
6. Romanis (???)- 3 (0,1,0)

I suppose a few of the votes for Belarus would be withdrawn now that
we know that Ivankov is out.

2. All-Around - top ten in no particular order (most people didn't vote for
ten, there were only about three who did)

1. Nemov - 10
2. Scherbo - 9
3. Ivankov - 8
Xiaoshuang - 8
5. Varopayev - 6
6. Sharipov - 5
7. Misutin - 4
Belenki - 4
9. Chebaev - 3
Jingjang - 3
Chechi - 3
13. Rothlesberger - 2
14. With one vote each: Daushwong, Huadong, Hatakeda, Fedorchenko,
Shupola, Svetlichnyi, Karbonyenko, Yoo, Ivanov, Wilson, Weicker,
Korubchinski (didn't he tear is achellies tendon at the 94 worlds? I
haven't seen him since.)

I never realized who well Chechi has done in the all-around until I looked
up some results on the internet. They never post results past the top
five or so (plus the Americans/Canadians depending on which channel
you're watching), which I really hate. Yuri's placed as high as seventh
or eighth since the injury!

2. Event finals (vote for top three in no particular order)

**Floor**

1. Scherbo - 6
2. Xiaoshuang - 5
3. Podgorni - 3
4. Misutin - 2
5. Melissanidis - 1
Nemov - 1

I was surprised that Misutin didn't get more votes here. He has been in
the top three for at least the past three World Championships.

**Pommel Horse**

1. Pae Gil Su - 4
2. Donghua - 3
Nemov - 3
3. With one vote each: Scherbo, Belenki, Ivankov, Troush, Nikiferow.


**Vault**

1. Xiaoshuang - 3
2. Four with two votes each: Xiaoshuang, Nemov, Scherbo, Misutin
6. Two with one vote each: Masucci, Sharipov

**Rings**

1. Chechi - 7 (okay, so one person voted for him three times)
2. Burinka - 4
3. Jovtchev - 3
4. Scherbo - 1

**Parallel Bars**]

1. Sharipov - 5
2. Nemov - 3
3. Scherbo - 2
4. five gymnasts with one vote each: Liping, Varopaev, Belenki, Ivankov
Donghua.

**High Bar**

1. Scherbo - 3
2. four gymnasts with two votes each: Pegan, Dounev, Carballo, Nemov
3. four gymnasts with one vote each: Supola, Fedorchenko, Xiaoshuang,
Varopayev.


4. Favourites

a) All-time

1. Chechi - 4 (okay, so a different person voted for him three times.)
2. Vidmar - 2
3. With one vote each: Conner, Gaylord, Scherbo, Umphrey, Bilozertchev,
Korolev, Tikhonkikh

b) Present

1. four with two votes each: Misutin, Sharipov, Scherbo, Nemov
5. with one vote each: Chechi, Supola, Burley, Bagiu, Ivonkov, Kan,
Wilson, Simons, Belenki

Thanks for your votes !!!

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:56:58 -0500
From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: Karpenko vs. Moceanu

Joy says:

>Read Beth's last posting about the Ukrainian team taking out Karpenko
>because of a leg injury. Now substitue "Moceanu" for "Karpenko" and
>"USA" for "UKR" and the similarities will be so obvious...except for the
>fact that Moceanu is going to compete. Odd, very odd... --Joy

This seems a bit simplistic to me, as it implies that all leg injuries are
the same. I don't know whether or not Moceanu should compete, but her
injury and Karpenko's are different and should be treated differently.

Ilene

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:58:44 -0400
From: ***@ICAN.CA
Subject: Dominique Moceanu

I am a fan of Dominique Moceanu, but I am getting a little sick of all the
media attention she is getting. In the Saturday, July 13 Toronto Star
Newspaper, there is a special Olympics section. One of the articles is a
list of the "Top Dozen Competitors" to watch for in Atlanta. Dominique is
the only female gymnast featured. The article is kind of critical of her,
("American media is tilting the gag meter by christening her the
'sweetheart' of the Summer Games") and it talks a bit about her stress
fracture, but I really don't think that they should have included her in the
article at all. Why not feature someone like Lilia Podkopayeva,or someone
who will most likely win gold?

One good point, though, is Vitaly Scherbo was one of the athletes featured,
and they called him " Perhaps one of the greatest gymnasts of all time",
then went on to list his achievements and mention his wife's accident.

-Krista

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:18:12 -0400
From: ***@VAXC.HOFSTRA.EDU
Subject: Re: Amanda

In regard to the money amanda will be giving back her parents, she
graduated eith a 4.0 from high school. She can probably get a full
academic scholarship and turn pro.
Alisa

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:00:39 -0400
From: ***@EROLS.COM
Subject: Olympic RSG rosters

In light of Rachele's message earlier about wildcard allotments, I started
looking through the web for places that might indicate which gymnasts are, or
are likely to be, beneficiaries. Since I have a particular interest in the
Middle East, I was particularly hoping to find names (and if possible more)
of the Egyptian RSG and Morrocan WAG athletes; I have had no luck as yet re
the latter, but did find an incredibly complete RSG site (it's on the gymn-l
hotlist) which lists a roster for the olympics (individuals, and countries
sending groups). The url for the roster is:

http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~uk4w/rsg/events/1996/os_atlanta_96_gym.html

The Egyptian gymnast is Lina-Mohamed Monir, who finished 76th at the Corbeil
International in May (a teammate, Youssef Jasmine (they've probably got the
names reversed) was 86th; Americans Laura(?) Illy and Liriel Higa finished
34th and 66th, respectively, in that meet. Sweden finished behind Egypt in
the team competition, as did several teams that sent only one gymnast.).
(complete AA results for the world championships are not available, so I
don't know what happened there). Lina also finished 15th at the French
International in March, but that was 15th of 15, and her AA was 33.714, as
against 35.125 in Corbeil.

I also noted that 3 Turkish gymnasts competed at Europeans -- Haloglu Saher,
Uzer Ozge and Sada Asli; however, Turkey will not be sending a team. Could
it be that both the Morroccan and Egyptian wildcards were awarded because
their top gymnasts in each discipline are the best representatives from
Africa?

-- Ann (reeda@erols.com) (who wishes more attention were paid to those whose
goal is simply to reach the games and represent their country as best they
can, especially when they come from countries where the training
opportunities and gymnastics traditions are not so well developed).

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:50:54 -0600
From: ***@STUDENTS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: overscoring (long)

Since this has come up, I just have to comment. It bothers me greatly that
the US is so overscored at home, but so many other countries are as well.
I was just watching some of the Triplecast and the overscoring of the
Spanish women is extreme--blatant and consistent. It doesn't figure into
the medals so much there, but it happened so often.

I agree with the poster who claims the Romanians are consistently
overscored. I don't want to start any flame wars over this, but it always
happens. I love Milo and I love her 92 FX, but it was given a 10.00 (after
countless flawless vaults and beams were not given tens) and she clearly
takes a huge jump forward on her first pass punch front. I know it's a
very difficult pass, but still .. do the judges take off for landings or
not? And those horrible piked late twisting Phelps that much of the
Romanian team does so badly??? I really like the Romanians and their
consistency, but they are always scored high, especially Milo.

I always thought Gutsu's way underrotated split leg double layout on floor
was overscored as well. I think reputation of the team helps and the
reputation of the gymnast, poor Onodi was grossly underscored.

What bugs me most is that the scoring seems inconsistent--Bogi is penalized
for lacking difficulty even when the routine starts from a 10 and is
absolutely flawless, but those with great difficulty and reputations are
not penalized for form breaks (Pods' Gienger on bars, that straddled and
ugly tuck front 1/2 vault of Lyssenko in 92, same for Milo), etc.

I really hope in Atlanta that the start value is taken seriously and form
is evaluated. That gives gymnasts like Bogi a chance, and makes Mo and
Pods clear favorites since they do the difficulty with awesome form.

And no, I am not a judge, just a frustrated fan.
Jill

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:54:00 EDT
From: ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: Karpenko vs. Moceanu

Ilene said that my comparison seemed simplistic, which I admit is true.
The situations are not the same. Karpenko has a hamstring injury and
Moceanu has a stress fracture. Karpenko's needs 6 weeks to fully
recover and Moceanu's needs at least that long to fully recover but it's
supposedly good enough to compete on now. However, the similarities are
there: both are very young gymnasts who have excellent futures in
gymnastics. Both are tricksters (Karpenko moreso) who will only improve
their polish and presentation with maturity. Their situations are not
the same, but very similar in many aspects. I think that much is true.
We'll see, in a few years, what happens and possibly which country made
a wiser choice. :) Joy

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:58:00 EDT
From: ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: TV ALERT (Philadelphia Area)

Tonight the Reno Team Challenge will be re-broadcast at 8:00 on
SportsChannel Phila. If you missed it the first time, watch it! It's a
rare chance to see good, happy gymnasts, especially Vanessa! (umm, no,
I'm not biased!! Really!!) :) Joy

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:17:00 EDT
From: ***@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject: Sports Illus.

The Sports Illustrated Olympic Preview Issue arrived today, and there's
some good gymnastics articles included. One is a profile of (who else)
Dominique Moceanu. It details her parents' lives in Romania and their
immigration and stuff like that. It doesn't concentrate too much on her
injury but it is taken into account. Then, there is an 11-page (!)
photo gallery that is all about Romanian gymnastics. The photos are B&W
and IMO it is a very good presentation. And of course, we've come to
expect the SI Olympic Medal Predictions, especially after the way they
foretold what would happen in Barcelona (sarcasm). This time SI seems
more realistic. Take a look:
TEAM AA VAULT BARS BEAM FLOOR
GOLD Romania Khorkina Gogean Khorkina Kochetkova Podkopayeva
SILVER China Podkopayeva Podkopayeva Piskun Moceanu Gogean
BRONZE USA Miller Amanar Mo Huilan Marinescu Miller

There are some notable omissions along with surprising inclusions. I hope
Alexandra doesn't get a hold of these predictions!

And for Men's and Rhythmic fans, I'll put those in too.

TEAM AA FLOOR P.HORSE RINGS VAULT
GOLD China Scherbo Scherbo Donghua Li Chechi Yeo Hong Chul
SILVER Russia Li Xiaoshuang Li X. Pae Gil Su Jovtchev Nemov
BRONZE Belarus Nemov Voropaev Huang Huadong Csollany Misutin

P-BARS HIGH BAR
GOLD Scherbo Carballo
SILVER Sharipov Dounev
BRONZE Nemov Hatakeda

RHYTHMIC
AA TEAM (I assume SI meant group)
GOLD Serebrianskaya Russia
SILVER Petrova Bulgaria
BRONZE Batyrchina Ukraine

Any comments, etc. are welcome! :) Joy

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:18:13 +0000
From: ***@ALOHA.NET
Subject: Re: Sports Illus.

Thanks Joy for posting Sports Illustrated's medal picks for Atlanta.

Just one thing though: The Ukranian RSG group failed to make the top
eight qualifying groups at the Vienna Worlds for the Olympics. How
and for that matter Why Sports Illustrated picked them to win the
bronze just "boggles the mind" so to speak.

A more accurate pick would be the Belarus or Spanish group.

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:51:31 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Olympics tics for sale/trade

We have the following Olympics tickets to sell or trade:
Rhythmic Gymnastics 8/2, 10am, 2 B @$25each (ind prelims)
Cycling (track) 7/24, 10am, 2 A @ $27each
Basketball (Women's) 7/31, 8pm, 2 A @ $38each (quarterfinal-games 3&4)
Volleyball (Men) 8/2, noon, 2 A @ $22each (finals 5-8places)

Especially interested in trading for tics on 7/22, 23, 25, 26, 27 to see
Athletics, Men's Basketball (especially USA), diving, swimming, or Women's
basketball.

Reply by private e-mail.

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:11:36 -0500
From: ***@CARLETON.EDU
Subject: Gymn Tour/Olympics on TV

Two questions:

1. When is the post gymnastics tour. Does anyone know how I can inquire
about tickets and when it will reach either the San Francisco Bay area or
Minneapolis/St. Paul. Any help would be greatly appricated.

2. I'll be at home in Canada (Montreal) for the games. The last time I
was in Canada for the '88 winter games I think I remember that the cable
station would switch the Canadian coverage over to the American station
so insteadof getting two different coverages we just got the Canadian
one. If they do that this time I will be majorly annoyed. Does anyone
know if I will be able to watch both cbc and nbc or if cbc will be taking
over the nbc coverage?

I also wanted to take this opportunity to thank every on this list. I've
always loved watching gymnastics, but didn't know that much. I'm still
not great a recognizing moves, etc. but since going this list in
September I've become a much more enlightened gymnastics viewer. I can
honestly say I've never been more excited for an olympics in my life.
Thank you all!

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:24:18 -0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Post Olympic Tour

Here is the schedule for the Post Olympic Tour. This info and any updates to it
will be
uploaded soon to the USA Gymnastics WWW pages.

Kris

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Hancock 1996 Tour of World Gymnastics Champions

USA Gymnastics is working with Bill Graham Presents and Jefferson-Pilot
Sports to bring to you the 1996 Tour of World and Olympic Gymnastics
Champions. This event will showcase many of the U.S. men's, women's and
rhythmic Olympic team members as well as past Olympic and World Champions.
Look for a stop near you.

Tickets should be available around the third week of July.
For ticket information call the venue listed.

Tentative Schedule

Fri., Sept. 20 West Palm Beach Auditorium
Sat., Sept. 21 Orlando Centroplex
Mon., Sept. 23 Charlotte Independence Arena
Thurs., Sept. 26 Baton Rouge LSU, Maravich Center
Fri., Sept. 27 Austin UT, Erwin Center
Sat., Sept. 28 Dallas (Denton) U of No. Texas Col.
Sun., Sept. 29 Oklahoma City Myriad Convention Ctr.
Fri., Oct. 4 Boston FleetCenter
Sat., Oct. 5 Uniondale, Long Island Nassau Coliseum
Sun., Oct. 6 Pittsburgh Civic Arena
Fri., Oct. 11 E. Rutherford, NJ Continental Airlines Arena
Sat., Oct. 12 Philadelphia Corestates Spectrum
Sun., Oct. 13 Washington DC/Baltimore USAir Arena
Thurs., Oct. 17 Atlanta The Omni
Fri., Oct. 18 Dayton Nutter Center
Sat., Oct. 19 Cleveland Gund Arena
Sun., Oct. 20 Detroit The Palace
Fri., Oct. 25 Indianapolis Market Square Arena
Sat., Oct. 26 Minneapolis Target Center
Sun., Oct. 27 Milwaukee Bradley Center
Fri., Nov. 1 Chicago Rosemont Horizon
Sat., Nov. 2 TBA TBA
Sun., Nov. 3 Denver McNichols Arena
Fri., Nov. 8 Seattle Key Arena
Sat., Nov. 9 Portland Rose Garden
Sun., Nov. 10 Sacramento Arco Arena
Wed., Nov. 13 San Diego Sports Arena
Thurs., Nov. 14 Phoenix TBA
Fri., Nov. 15 Anaheim Arrowhead Pond
Sat., Nov. 16 TBA TBA
Sun., Nov. 17 San Jose San Jose Arena

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:05:05 -0400
From: ***@GRFN.ORG
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 12 Jul 1996 - Special issue

I'm not saying that it makes it ok. What I am saying is that
it is not confined to just gymnastics.

Also, it seems to be a fact of life that athletes want to push
themselves as hard as humanly possible (and sometimes further)
to meet their goals. This might sometimes seem cruel with 14
year olds, but when the person is 25 or 26, the decision is
being made what we would hope is an informed adult.

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:09:46 -0400
From: ***@CLOUD9.NET
Subject: Re: Post Olympic Tour

> Here is the schedule for the Post Olympic Tour.

[snip]

Will any foreign gymnasts take part in this tour, or will it be an
all-American show?

Debbie

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 18:54:00 -0500
From: ***@HOLLI.COM
Subject: Looking for Gym Director/Coach!

Seeking program director for a growing program in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Full time position with salary PLUS bonus! Large recreational program with
growing compulsory amd optional teams. Start date is approximately August
19. Contact the gym owner at

***@butler.edu

or call

Susan

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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:20:40 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Overscoring.

I recently saw the Triple cast and I have to say that after seeing that I was
majorly disspointed in NBC main broadcast. The triple cast, which did NOT
have control over the pictures, was far mor informative to me. They showed
alot more of the gymnasts who weren't in the hunt and it made me see several
things I didn't like about the judging in Barcelona.


1) Jill is correct in saying that Bogi was penalized for not have major
difficult routines but still had a 10.0 start value. It isn't fair, but it
was done. I think that looking that after looking at the triple cast the
judges had worked themselves into such a mess with the 1988-1992 code that
they just gave up and said we'll only deduct for errors and regardless of what
the code says you have to have 3 x the difficulty. This was done primarily
because of gymnasts like Gutsu, who had much more difficulty in their routines
but they had to be 'fair' (in P. Vidmar's words) and reward her accordingly
and only take half value deductions on steps and misses. This made everything
go wrong. People were hitting great routines (Mitova's FX) and getting less
than 9.9 but others were missing (Gutsu) and getting 9.9 + scores. As
Peter Vidmar put it best, it became more of an issue of your line up than
what you actually did for face value.


2) They were not consistent. Example. Milo hits a layout yurchenko full
and gets 9.9750. Another gymnast comes in an hits a weaker vault, and gets a
weaker score. Then Lyssenko hits the best layout yurchenko double full (and
I mean PLANTS) it and gets a 9.962, which is lower than Milo's score.
It makes NO SENSE and when the system rewards one for going beyond, it shoudl
reward the others. It didn't.


I think that in Atlanta things will be different, I hope, but I think that
we'll also see some of the usualy stuff and 'benifit of the doubt' with
some gymnast. It has always been there. I remember seeing Ludmilla's face
after Korbut beat her on the FX with a weaker routines for the gold.
She knew what was going on. In 1984, there were errors on both Szabo and
Rettons part, but with Szabo's fall it was so obvious they had to take the0.5
off. They let others slide on both sides (By this time, the judges were only
taking deductions on steps into consideration- watch the vaults and you'll
see.) In Seoul, it was more of out of control. The only thing necessary wasa
a stuck landing for a high score. So much, Silivas gave up on super
difficulty and just went for stuck routines, and won alot in EF. (talk about
playing the code the best!) In Barcelona, the code was so worthless everyone
was just trying for difficult tricks. And the judges followed suit, but
backed themselves into the corner.


In Atlanta, we don't have that problem. Even hit, solid routines get in the
9.8 - 9.9 range. I think that current code is the best and should help
to keep scoring in line.

I thoroughly think that the US uses a different system to judge its nationals
and trials. BUt that is my opinion.


Jeff

(Why thinks that Bogi was overscored still because she does have
execution errors and amplitude errors but should be most thank full that she
had a gymnast liked Tatiana Lyssenko to give her great lead off scores
on which to build on. She really should. I mean, Lyssenko competing on
UB BEFORE Bogi. Come on.....)


Dina, Dina, Dina.

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 13 Jul 1996 - Special issue
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